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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 15th 08, 07:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I
got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site,
landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a
landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the
tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk
if he wasn't going to clear me to land?

BTW: It always struck me as odd that a Mooney and a 747 have the same
vis requirements on an ILS. A 1/2 mile is probably like 2 seconds in a
747 but an 1/8 mile is like 10 seconds in a Mooney. Of all my 6
approaches today I easily could have landed from any one of them. I
was able to follow the rabbit to the runway but technically if I can
only see 1/8 or so I can't land.

-Robert
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  #2  
Old January 15th 08, 08:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 373
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

On Jan 15, 12:45*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I
got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site,
landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a
landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the
tower ATC phrase book?


I looked in my FAR/AIM 2007 Pilot/Controller glossary and found
nothing.

I could only hazaar guesses as an uninformed VFR only wimp. I'm
curious about the answer though!

ON a (barely) related aside regarding my ignorance of IFR terminology:
I checked out in a 172 on Sunday, and while doing some landings at a
non-towered local airport that had some published IFR approaches I'd
hear planes calling their positions using IFR terminology.

I had NO CLUE where the planes actually were in relation to the
airport. I didn't know if they were two minutes out or ten. A bit
disconcerting when you want to take the active and fly the pattern. If
wishes were horses this beggar would ask that IFR pilots report their
positions (during VFR conditions) in a way us poor VFR only morons
could understand.

Might be safer for all ... maybe might maybe ...

  #3  
Old January 15th 08, 08:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
kontiki
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Posts: 479
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I
got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site,
landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a
landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the
tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk
if he wasn't going to clear me to land?

BTW: It always struck me as odd that a Mooney and a 747 have the same
vis requirements on an ILS. A 1/2 mile is probably like 2 seconds in a
747 but an 1/8 mile is like 10 seconds in a Mooney. Of all my 6
approaches today I easily could have landed from any one of them. I
was able to follow the rabbit to the runway but technically if I can
only see 1/8 or so I can't land.

-Robert


What are the vis minimums for that approach? Probably than 1/8 SM.
I'm sure you got cleared for the approach but perhaps since the vis
minimums were below that published for the approach tower didn't issue
you a clearance. That's my guess.

  #4  
Old January 15th 08, 08:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

On Jan 15, 11:02*am, wrote:

I had NO CLUE where the planes actually were in relation to the
airport. I didn't know if they were two minutes out or ten. A bit
disconcerting when you want to take the active and fly the pattern. If
wishes were horses this beggar would ask that IFR pilots report their
positions (during VFR conditions) in a way us poor VFR only morons
could understand.


Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its
not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where
you are).

-Robert, CFII
  #6  
Old January 15th 08, 08:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
kontiki
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its
not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where
you are).

-Robert, CFII


Flight instructors should at least tell their students
about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport).
Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run.



  #7  
Old January 15th 08, 08:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

On Jan 15, 11:15*am, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its
not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where
you are).


-Robert, CFII


Flight instructors should at least tell their students
about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport).
Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run.


That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport
they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as
well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to
use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they
could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12".
Its not very hard.

-Robert, CFII
  #8  
Old January 15th 08, 08:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"


Flight instructors should at least tell their students
about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport).
Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run.


That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport
they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as
well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to
use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they
could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12".
Its not very hard.

-Robert, CFII


I can't see much sense in demanding that VFR pilots learn about IFR
and buy or download the approach plates so they can understand a radio
message from an IFR flight doing practice in VFR conditions (or when
conditions are VFR at the relevant airport).

Since there is no requirement to use the radio at class E fields,
though, then there's really nothing to be said if an IFR pilot just
doesn't want to be bothered.

This will probably never be such a big problem (ie, an accident or two
or three) that the FAA has to write a regulation on it. If they do
regulate, I'd bet money on the rule requiring IFR pilots to announce
position rather than the FAA requiring IFR knowledge from VFR pilots.
However annoying to the IFR pilot it might be.
  #9  
Old January 15th 08, 08:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll
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Posts: 1,477
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...

Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I
got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site,
landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a
landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the
tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk
if he wasn't going to clear me to land?


He erred. The proper phraseology is "not in sight, runway 22L cleared to
land." "Own risk" is used when a pilot insists on landing on a closed
runway, "unable to issue landing clearance, landing will be at your own
risk."


  #10  
Old January 15th 08, 08:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.ifr
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

On Jan 15, 11:30*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

He erred. *The proper phraseology is "not in sight, runway 22L cleared to
land." *"Own risk" is used when a pilot insists on landing on a closed
runway, "unable to issue landing clearance, landing will be at your own
risk."


That's what I thought but he said it 6 times. Must be training week
in Sacramento. Sunday night I flew into SAC and was told "Cleared to
land runway 22". I assume they hadn't built a new runway over night.

-Robert
 




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