Rumsfeld and flying

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:



WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting
war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.


Art, you post a lot of interesting things that I enjoy. If you are
referring to Rumsfeld, this seems a cheap shot. If he was an ASW driver,
he may have had just as much a role in avoiding shooting wars than a
BUFF driver.

My former father-in-law was a Naval aviator flying close air support
during Korea. During Viet Nam, however, I suppose you could say he "got
out of combat" since his assignments included service test pilot at
Wright-Patterson, Sixth Fleet duty, etc. For that matter, his later
flying career with RA5C's, so obviously he didn't shoot.

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 3/6/04 10:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

My former father-in-law was a Naval aviator flying close air support
during Korea. During Viet Nam, however, I suppose you could say he "got
out of combat" since his assignments included service test pilot at
Wright-Patterson, Sixth Fleet duty

He went to war and saw the elephant. He was one of us. Every thing after that
is gravy.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 3/6/04 10:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: cJo2c.10293$m4.2072@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting
war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!


This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Now I'll ask the nurse for a larger dose and thanks for your good luck
wishes.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

This is a very emotional issue for me.

Obviously your emotions have overtaken your other bodily functions.

I think of absent friends who still lie in foreign graves.

Should have shipped them home. Most would have died on Route 66
anyway, as we didn't have seat belts back then.

Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.

Rumsfeld ain't one of them. He was a Congressman, not a combat pilot.

And no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers
of men were equal

Rumsfeld wasn't a pilot during his Reserve Duty. I don't think he's flown
an aircraft since 1954.

You served with honor. So did the SecDef. You had one situation, he
had another. Don't attempt to demean him or others to fit your agenda.
Or, at least if you do, then keep the ROE consistent.

Uhhh...Ed....let me introduce you to Art Kramer....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

You served with honor. So did the SecDef. You had one situation, he
had another. Don't attempt to demean him or others to fit your agenda.
Or, at least if you do, then keep the ROE consistent.

Uhhh...Ed....let me introduce you to Art Kramer....


BUFDRVR


I agree...you certainly don't seem to know him...
--

-Gord.

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/6/04 12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

You served with honor. So did the SecDef. You had one situation, he
had another. Don't attempt to demean him or others to fit your agenda.
Or, at least if you do, then keep the ROE consistent.

Uhhh...Ed....let me introduce you to Art Kramer....


BUFDRVR


I think back to the days of my training in Texas. Every instructor we had was a
combat veteran who completed his tour of duty and came back to instruct. My
Bombing instructor was a veteran of 25 missions with the bloody 100th bomb
group. He flew them from England to Berlin without fighter escort taking
horrible losses. He not only tought us our basic job, but he let us know what
it acutually was like in combat and all during my tour of duty his training
resulted in the fact that there were no surprises for us in combat except
for the time we are attacked by an ME 262. I find it interesting that Rumsfeld
was an instructor who had never been to combat. I don't see that as a change
for the better in flight training.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 3/6/04 12:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still
lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.
And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

I thought we were talking about flying but I see it is now a purely a political
issue.
and therefore of far less interest. I never leveled any personal insults
against you as you are now against me. Lets let it go at that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer