Safety pilot in and out of IMC

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

That is incorrect. The safety pilot does not even have to be
qualified to act as PIC under VFR!

....unless the safety pilot wants to log the time as PIC. Otherwise, just
retain PIC, use a safety pilot rated in category and class and all is well.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Ron Natalie wrote:
There's no need to tell the other pilot to be "PIC", just ask him
to take the controls. There's a difference betweeen operating the
controls and serving as pilot in command.

My recommendation would be to brief your safety pilot before you start
up so you both know what you're expecting from each other. When you
break out on short final is no time for the two of you to be wondering
why the other guy doesn't appear to be doing anything about getting
ready to land (or worse, one guy is pulling the throttle back to land
while the other guy is picking the gear up to go missed).

Roy Smith wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:

There's no need to tell the other pilot to be "PIC", just ask him
to take the controls. There's a difference betweeen operating the
controls and serving as pilot in command.


My recommendation would be to brief your safety pilot before you start
up so you both know what you're expecting from each other. When you
break out on short final is no time for the two of you to be wondering
why the other guy doesn't appear to be doing anything about getting
ready to land (or worse, one guy is pulling the throttle back to land
while the other guy is picking the gear up to go missed).

Agreed, anytime there is more than one pilot in the aircraft it behooves
you to figure out what roles (if any) each will play.

Ron Natalie wrote:
: The FAA rule on the matter is that you gotta have a safety pilot
: if you've got the foggles on.

... and are in VMC, no? No need to scan for traffic in IMC so I wouldn't
think that it's necessary to have a safety pilot. Of course you don't *know* that
it's IMC if you have them on... interesting.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
: The FAA rule on the matter is that you gotta have a safety pilot
: if you've got the foggles on.

... and are in VMC, no?

The rule says "simulated instrument flight." You can argue that the
"foggles on in IMC" isn't really simulated anymore, just severe actual,
but the truth of the matter is, how do you know you're not in visual
conditions?

"Paul Tomblin" wrote:
I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?

As long as you're flying an IFR clearance, I see no problem with it. Are you
doing it just so you can log the time in actual? Whenever I'm doing practice
approaches in such conditions, I just keep the foggles on the whole time.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
: As long as you're flying an IFR clearance, I see no problem with it. Are you
: doing it just so you can log the time in actual? Whenever I'm doing practice
: approaches in such conditions, I just keep the foggles on the whole time.
: --

There's one potential problem with this that I can see. If you're trying to
both log PIC time (which is what it sounds like), there's a potential issue. Remember
that in order to both log PIC time, you must agree with each other beforehand that
while you are under the hood, he is ACTING as PIC (and thus legally responsible for
the safe outcome of the flight). Since two pilots are required for that portion of
the flight, his ACTING as PIC allows him to LOG PIC, while your manipulation of the
controls of an aircraft for which you are rated allows you to also LOG PIC for the
same time.

If your safety pilot has an instrument rating, this is fine. If the safety
pilot does NOT have an instrument rating, then you would legally have to terminate IFR
upon entering VMC in order for him to ACT as PIC. No person may accept an IFR
clearance without an instrument rating, whether in VMC or IMC. If you continue to fly
in VMC on and IFR clearance, you must still be ACTING as PIC while you manipulate the
controls so the safety pilot cannot log the time.

Conversely, if you were NOT on an IFR clearance, while it would be legal for
him to ACT as PIC in VMC, you would not be able to enter IMC without first getting a
clearance.

It sounds complicated, but I finally think I have the ACTING vs. LOGGING PIC
time thing figured out. Feel free to poke holes in the logic.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:51:36 -0600, "Dan Luke" wrote:


"Paul Tomblin" wrote:
I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?

As long as you're flying an IFR clearance, I see no problem with it. Are you
doing it just so you can log the time in actual? Whenever I'm doing practice
approaches in such conditions, I just keep the foggles on the whole time.


If he was on an IFR clearance, there WOULD be a problem with it if the
safety pilot is not rated.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:19:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?


Why does he have to become PUC?

Safety pilots don't have to be PIC.

Paul Tomblin wrote:

I want to go fly some approaches (and a hold) on Sunday. I know from
experience that it's likely that the ceilings will be too high to do any
meaningful approaches in IMC, but high enough that I might be in IMC
during the vectors to the approach or at the hold. I figured I could take
along a safety pilot, and then when I break out on the approach tell him
he's acting PIC while I put on my foggles and complete the approach, and
then when we go back into the clouds on the missed take off the foggles
(or not) and become PIC again.

Has anybody else done this? Is it smart? Safe? Legal?



Since you have to file IFR to fly in IMC anyway, why worry about taking
off the foggles? Just leave them on and fly like you are in VMC, but
tell your safety pilot to make sure they keep their eyes open during the
times you pop out of the clouds.


Matt