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We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 19th 17, 12:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Coleman
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Wouldn't the SZD-55 be a logical candidate? Competitive performance, no carbon, simple.

Cheers Ben
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  #52  
Old March 19th 17, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Soartech
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:31:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
Low capital cost isn't everything.

What's the depreciation on a high performance hang glider?


It IS everything if you can't afford it!
Then the alternative is to not fly or buy something you can afford.
Add in no license required and free launches. For most young people it's a
no-brainer. Been there and done that.

  #53  
Old March 19th 17, 02:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

"Add in no license required and free launches"


To paraphrase, there is no such thing as a free launch. I flew hang gliders for thirty years, and I have to say that most "free launches" involved a 4wd truck and hours of driving. Of course, I also had the option of a $6.50 tramway ride to the top of Sandia Peak in Albuquerque, but everywhere else required a drive or fees paid for winch or aerotow.

As far as depreciation, most hang gliders had about a five year lifespan if maintained properly- possibly more (depending on the amount of UV exposure..) The big problem was advancing technology, which required more investment on a regular basis to keep up. With the amount of airtime I regularly logged, I was trading gliders on a two to three year schedule. Over the years, I probably spent two or three times as much as what I spent on my Pegasus- and it is still getting me 150 hours a year, and holding its value reasonably well.
  #54  
Old March 19th 17, 03:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Giaco
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Not sure that $25k in today's dollars has ever translated to a new glider.
http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation...7000&year=1968

For example, $7K in 1968 is now just under $50k

That means your ASW-19 would have cost $5k delivered when it was originally released in 1975...

Long story short, Bob K is taking orders, get your HP-24 while you can!
  #55  
Old March 19th 17, 11:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 2:49:36 AM UTC+3, Soartech wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:31:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
Low capital cost isn't everything.

What's the depreciation on a high performance hang glider?


It IS everything if you can't afford it!
Then the alternative is to not fly or buy something you can afford.
Add in no license required and free launches. For most young people it's a
no-brainer. Been there and done that.


In I assume many countries -- New Zealand is one definite example -- a hang glider pilot requires exactly the same "license" as a glider pilot (or parachutist, or ultralight pilot), namely:

- must belong to a club affiliated to the appropriate national organisation, to which authority is delegated by the Ministry of Transport

- said club must have a CFI approved by the national organisation

- said pilot may not fly unless the CFI says so (usually expressed as "has not grounded them")


You can't just buy a used hang glider on TradeMe and jump off the nearest hill.
  #56  
Old March 20th 17, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

I'll bet you can in the USA. Mark, has that changed?

On 3/19/2017 4:55 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 2:49:36 AM UTC+3, Soartech wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:31:39 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
Low capital cost isn't everything.

What's the depreciation on a high performance hang glider?

It IS everything if you can't afford it!
Then the alternative is to not fly or buy something you can afford.
Add in no license required and free launches. For most young people it's a
no-brainer. Been there and done that.

In I assume many countries -- New Zealand is one definite example -- a hang glider pilot requires exactly the same "license" as a glider pilot (or parachutist, or ultralight pilot), namely:

- must belong to a club affiliated to the appropriate national organisation, to which authority is delegated by the Ministry of Transport

- said club must have a CFI approved by the national organisation

- said pilot may not fly unless the CFI says so (usually expressed as "has not grounded them")


You can't just buy a used hang glider on TradeMe and jump off the nearest hill.


--
Dan, 5J
  #57  
Old March 20th 17, 02:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Dan- I haven't been really involved in hang gliding since 2002 or so, but as far as I KNOW, "Licensing" of hang glider and paraglider pilots is still not within the purview of the FAA. In the US, pilot rating and instruction is administered by the US Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (USHGPA), headquartered in Colorado Springs, CO.

Many flying sites and commercial operations for foot launch, ground tow (winch) or aerotow require liability insurance. This insurance is available to the pilot, site owner or commercial operator through the USHGPA. It is an included benefit of USHGPA membership, or a purchased certificate of endorsement for the particular site, club, landowner, commercial operator or government entity that has influence or financial interest in the particular site or operation.

In order to fly at one of these insured sites, USHGPA membership (or reciprocal foreign organization), and applicable pilot ratings must be presented.
  #58  
Old March 20th 17, 02:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

This is a good discussion. The closest thing to what you're talking about is the HPH 304C. I recently emailed Sean Franke and asked for a quote and was told that nobody had ordered one since 2014. A bulk order with cheaper US made trailers may be the way to go. The other key component to this is currently there's only 1 Bank that has loans specific to gliders. Yes you can take out a home equity line to partially finance the latest and greatest, but clubs cannot do this. As the Chair of the Growth and Retention Committee I intend to spend some face time to see what can be done for clubs who have at least 50% equity in their glider. Such loans shouldn't require a Guarantor where the glider is new or newly used and worth more than $50k. One option is to have pledges in the event of a default (which isn't quite the same thing as being a Guarantor but ought to still help reduce the risk for a bank). The next question is, who wants to get into the glider Repo business? Hopefully this won't be needed though.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris Schrader, Chair of SSA's Growth & Retention Committee
  #59  
Old March 20th 17, 03:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Chris,

I respect your engagement in this forum to help our failing sport. You have a tough job ahead of you.

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.
  #60  
Old March 20th 17, 03:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Reinholt
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.


As the CEO of General Motors said a year or so ago in an interview, "I can bend metal that looks ugly or bend metal looks good. The cost of doing either is the same."
I can't believe that the actual cost of producing an ASW19 today in Germany is significantly less than the cost of making the ASW28. Both will be manufactured with the same processes, etc, but just a different shape. The bulk of the manufacturing cost is labor. Carbon fiber? That cost differencial is small in the overall picture. Plus you get the added benefit of improved cockpit safety in the newer design.
Are you expecting the new ASW19's to be made in China, Malaysia, or another low labor cost country? I'd enjoy listening to the conversations at Schleicher when that topic is discussed.
I think your idea has some huge practical road blocks directly in it's path..
 




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