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#11
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Flying through known or forecast icing
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1134595839.771861@sj-nntpcache-3... wrote: Not to tangent too much, but doesn't that regulation regarding "prohibited flight into known icing conditions" without certified de-ice equipment loophole old planes? I seem to recall something about if the POH for the aircraft does not say the magic words, "Flight into icing conditions prohibited," then it's not illegal. Right. The prohibition is not in the FARs, it's in the aircraft's airworthiness certificate. The POH is derived from the airworthiness certificate. No, the prohibition is in the FARs--specifically, 91.527, quoted in my previous note in this thread. --Gary |
#12
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Flying through known or forecast icing
No, the prohibition is in the FARs--specifically, 91.527, quoted in my
previous note in this thread. That applies only to "large or turbine powered multi-engine" aircraft. Jose -- You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#13
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Flying through known or forecast icing
Gary Drescher wrote:
No, there isn't any such loophole in the wording of the FARs: "91.527(b) Sorry Garry...91.527 doesn't apply unless you are flying a large or turbine powered aircraft. |
#14
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Flying through known or forecast icing
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
... Gary Drescher wrote: No, there isn't any such loophole in the wording of the FARs: "91.527(b) Sorry Gary...91.527 doesn't apply unless you are flying a large or turbine powered aircraft. Oops, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. --Gary |
#15
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Flying through known or forecast icing
According to Scott Dennstaedt's article in the latest IFR magazine, we won't
be seeing Airmets (or Area Forecasts) after early 2006. Better graphic displays will take their place. Big plus is that the forecast area is more precisely defined in both scope and time. Bob Gardner wrote in message ... : No. Legally, forecast ice is "known icing." Not to tangent too much, but doesn't that regulation regarding "prohibited flight into known icing conditions" without certified de-ice equipment loophole old planes? I seem to recall something about if the POH for the aircraft does not say the magic words, "Flight into icing conditions prohibited," then it's not illegal. Certainly not a good idea and guaranteed to bite you on "careless and wreckless" if something happens, but strictly speaking not immediately illegal. With the scAIRMETS for icing constituting "known-icing" everywhere north of the Carolinas for significant chunks out of the year, most GA planes are operating illegally. -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************** *********************** |
#16
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Flying through known or forecast icing
John Doe wrote:
Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as to what folks are willing to do in the winter time. Assumptions: Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment. Situation: It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the forecast with the potential for icing to occur. It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the clear above the weather. SO: 1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would you be willing to risk transition through possible icing? I believe the recent interpretations is that this would be illegal as the cloud layer at below freezing temps would constitute an area of "known" icing and thus penetrating it would not be legal. As to what I would do personally ... well, I won't answer that here! :-) 2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing from a recent PIREP? It would change my personal view of the situation, but I don't think it changes the legality. 3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally? I don't believe you can do so legally. 4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the clouds? Again it depends, but if I had sufficient fuel, I'd probably divert. If I was low on fuel, I'd descend through the layer. Matt |
#17
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Flying through known or forecast icing
How about the flight when you are VFR and encounter freezing rain with
resulting clear ice accumulation? Had it happen long about 1967 in a brand new Cessna Cardinal in Louisiana and barely made it to the overrun area at the approach end of the airport in Hammond, LA. Never saw it coming and suddenly I was covered in ice...... |
#18
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Flying through known or forecast icing
Bob Gardner wrote:
George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or a pilot. A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud. This has certainly been my experience also. I recently flew from Lebanon, NH to ELM on a day with the freezing level around 4,000 and an MEA of 6,000 across the mountains of southern VT. I picked up some light rime and requested higher and got between layers. The clouds again arose to smite me, so I requested higher again and broke out on top at 10,000. My requests were calm and matter of fact and the controllers were extremely accomodating. There was never even a hint that they questioned why I was flying an Arrow on such a day. Matt |
#19
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Flying through known or forecast icing
George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing conditions? -----Original Message----- From: George Patterson ] Posted At: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:16 AM Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr Conversation: Flying through known or forecast icing Subject: Flying through known or forecast icing Bob Gardner wrote: George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or a pilot. No, I don't think "they" are just waiting to write me up, but the OP asked if it was *legal*, and it's not. A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud. I've been told that too; however, I'm not going to go through clouds without an IFR clearance, and I wouldn't take either of the aircraft I've owned through an area in which icing has been reported. Now, if icing had only been *forecast* in that area but not reported, and the bottom of the cloud deck was well above minimums, I would chance it. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
#20
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Flying through known or forecast icing
I can answer that one: in 1974.
2nd question: forecast icing IS "KNOWN ICING *CONDITIONS*". Jim Carter wrote: George, I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing conditions? |
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