Buying an older airplane

jsmith wrote in message ...
What is your definition of "older aircraft"?
My definition is pre-1960. Then again, I fly a 45 Champ.



My Fairchild and Stinson were built in 1944, my Aero Commander was
built in 1957....The only big problem can be factory support for
aircraft over 20 years old, but there are almost always type or model
clubs that generate their own support network.

As to having N numbers changed, take the time and order the a/c
history and see what the reason was for the change. I know of several
aircraft that have gone through the change process to put personalized
numbers on them every time they were sold.

Craig C.

John Galban wrote:

So, those with non-collectible old planes are not proud of them?
I'm willing to bet that you are not an airplane owner :-)

I'd be more inclined to bet that he doesn't talk to many aircraft owners or hang
around airports much. Anyone who's seen someone polishing the bugs off his old Cessna
140 after a flight knows better.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Kai Glaesner wrote:

imagine you consider byuing an older airplane, e.g. a Piper from the
Pa-28
Arrow series: is there an age (or a year of birth ;-) you would not
exceed?

I wouldn't go much further back than 1917.

Meaning you wouldn't fly an aircraft that's older than you are? Me, neither.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


John Galban wrote:

So, those with non-collectible old planes are not proud of them?
I'm willing to bet that you are not an airplane owner :-)

I'd be more inclined to bet that he doesn't talk to many aircraft owners
or hang
around airports much. Anyone who's seen someone polishing the bugs off his
old Cessna
140 after a flight knows better.

Somehow, the thread that ran recently about how out-of-date the vintage
aircraft (pre 90's??) are compared to the new generation (i.e., Cirrus)
comes to mind.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Meaning you wouldn't fly an aircraft that's older than you are? Me, neither.

I've owned three planes. Only one of them was younger than I am and it
was made while I was in gradeschool. And I'm going to be looking at 50
sooner than I want to think about.



--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

I hang around airports quite a lot. I run into more renters than owners, as
I rent my plane out. The owners I speak to more often than not have a
warbird, aerobatic plane, homebuilt, etc.

A Cessna 140 would not fit my description of a common plane which has tens
of thousands of newer copies running around. Why? Because at some point,
there was so little demand for them that they tended to get parted out.

Twenty ears from now, a clean 152 will have the same charm and desirability
as a 140 does now. They don't make them anymore. But I would not bet on the
curve before that time, nor desire to keep one up in the meantime. Most of
the schools here are starting to sell them off cheap because they are not
making money and are too much trouble to manage.

I don't see many people out taking great care of their 30 plus year old
172's. I see those planes rotting in hangars for lack of care and use, or
working out their last days in an FBO. Now, there is a great market for old
172's as rental planes, but the schools are not paying top dollar. There are
exceptions, there are a couple 172's that have been fully restored to better
than new with cool custom paint jobs. However, if those owners had put the
same amount of care into a less commodity type plane, they would be able to
recoup more of their value in a sale.

While we are making bets, I bet you make quick judgements about people more
than you should.


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


John Galban wrote:

So, those with non-collectible old planes are not proud of them?
I'm willing to bet that you are not an airplane owner :-)

I'd be more inclined to bet that he doesn't talk to many aircraft owners
or hang
around airports much. Anyone who's seen someone polishing the bugs off his
old Cessna
140 after a flight knows better.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if
treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

Why not? Selling an older airplane is often easier than selling a
newer one. Since they tend to be priced lower, there's a larger
market for them.


Um, you will have to define "newer" and "older"


My plane is of a 60s vintage. It's quite a popular model and I
don't think I'd have any trouble selling it. Folks with similar
planes generally sell them within a few weeks. I've flown a current
model('03) of my plane and there is very little real difference
between the two. The new bird is slower and carries less load, but is
constructed pretty much the same as the 60s version. The major
difference is in aquisition price (~$200K difference).


Will you have the same confidence about it holding its value for another 5
or 10 years?


Now you're getting into the "harder to sell" category. A popular
model also ensures that parts availability will not be a problem and
that most mechanics will be familiar with the airplane. These are big
pluses when considering the amount of time and expense that will be
required to maintain the aircraft.


I know what I am saying is counter to common wisdom, but the world is
getting ready to change. In 5 or 10 years, how many people are going to buy
a plane from the 60's to be flown 100 hours or more a year? The parts issue
starts to get less important to people buying a collectible as opposed to a
working plane. I believe the FAA may have an adverse affect on the older
working planes over the next few years. The cost of operation will be going
up. ( by working plane, I mean one that is bought by someone that places
more value on the flying part, than the owning part).



So, those with non-collectible old planes are not proud of them?
I'm willing to bet that you are not an airplane owner :-)

Don't be silly.

No, those buying non collectible planes are generally not buying them for
that reason. They are buying them to use. That means they are looking at
the cost of maintanence, safety, and dispatch reliability. They may be
looking for an unusual or fun flying experience.

I would make the argument that some owners are more proud than others.
Certainly there are proud owners of lots of common planes, and I enjoy
seeing them on the ramp. I am always complimentary of any well maintained
plane.

However, more and more of the generation where every man was a mechanic are
losing their medicals. The newer pilots are more affluent, and less
interested in spending time under the cowling. Great news for some, because
the value of older planes will be dropping. Many of the people on this
board do supervised work on their planes, but I see that type of pilot
becoming more rare.

Yes, your piper will have parts availability for a long time. That makes it
a safer investment and protects the value - to a point. It is also going to
get to the point where people consider it an antique. Rare antiques bring
more money. Your plane is likely in better shape than many of the same make
that are ten years newer, but how can you advertise your plane for sale on
the market without discounting yours against the newer ones?

There are not people lining up to buy 60's 172's for restoration. There are
surely a few, but there are lots and lots of those planes to go around.

Lastly, planes at that end of the market attract more tire kickers and
useless phone calls than I would want to take.

So, I am a plane owner, and I may be an owner of two planes before long. My
present one was built in this millenium, but I may be buying an older one
which will be more for looking at and showing off. I won't be taking my
family in it, and I won't be flying it IFR.

Hope no one took your bet.

As I said, I know that I am bucking the old school here, but I call them
like I see them, and I didn't get the money to buy a new plane by being
wrong all the time. Also, I didn't make it in the plane business, so feel
free to ignore me if you please







John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Dude" wrote in message
...
I hang around airports quite a lot. I run into more renters than owners,
as
I rent my plane out. The owners I speak to more often than not have a
warbird, aerobatic plane, homebuilt, etc.

A Cessna 140 would not fit my description of a common plane which has tens
of thousands of newer copies running around. Why? Because at some point,
there was so little demand for them that they tended to get parted out.

Twenty ears from now, a clean 152 will have the same charm and
desirability
as a 140 does now. They don't make them anymore. But I would not bet on
the
curve before that time, nor desire to keep one up in the meantime. Most
of
the schools here are starting to sell them off cheap because they are not
making money and are too much trouble to manage.

I don't see many people out taking great care of their 30 plus year old
172's. I see those planes rotting in hangars for lack of care and use, or
working out their last days in an FBO. Now, there is a great market for
old
172's as rental planes, but the schools are not paying top dollar. There
are
exceptions, there are a couple 172's that have been fully restored to
better
than new with cool custom paint jobs. However, if those owners had put the
same amount of care into a less commodity type plane, they would be able
to
recoup more of their value in a sale.

While we are making bets, I bet you make quick judgements about people
more
than you should.

You must hang around some sorry ass airports.

Sorry, but that is my opinion. If you don't like it, you still have no
reason to throw stones.

I am not saying anyone's baby is ugly, and I resent the comments that I am
not a plane owner (implication that I am too poor, stupid, or ignorant to
own one so no one should listen to me) or that I hang out in bad places ( so
that I am low class, poor, stupid, ignorant, etc.)

I have seen some of the incredibly personal stuff that has flown around on
this board, and while this is incredibly low level, it only shows the
weakness of your position to take these stances.

If you have a worthwhile point make it. Otherwise, please feel free to
ignore my posts. No one will learn anything from your snide comments except
for the value of your character.

The owners of the kinds of planes we are talking about will not pay for
hangar fees at my airport. They get them half price down the road, and they
are not as nice. If this gives me a warped view of the airplane world, so
be it. That's what I see at my airport.

What airport do you think is an example of one that is not "sorry"..


"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
.. .

"Dude" wrote in message
...
I hang around airports quite a lot. I run into more renters than
owners,
as
I rent my plane out. The owners I speak to more often than not have a
warbird, aerobatic plane, homebuilt, etc.

A Cessna 140 would not fit my description of a common plane which has
tens
of thousands of newer copies running around. Why? Because at some
point,
there was so little demand for them that they tended to get parted out.

Twenty ears from now, a clean 152 will have the same charm and
desirability
as a 140 does now. They don't make them anymore. But I would not bet on
the
curve before that time, nor desire to keep one up in the meantime. Most
of
the schools here are starting to sell them off cheap because they are
not
making money and are too much trouble to manage.

I don't see many people out taking great care of their 30 plus year old
172's. I see those planes rotting in hangars for lack of care and use,
or
working out their last days in an FBO. Now, there is a great market for
old
172's as rental planes, but the schools are not paying top dollar. There
are
exceptions, there are a couple 172's that have been fully restored to
better
than new with cool custom paint jobs. However, if those owners had put
the
same amount of care into a less commodity type plane, they would be able
to
recoup more of their value in a sale.

While we are making bets, I bet you make quick judgements about people
more
than you should.

You must hang around some sorry ass airports.

Thanks for all the answers.

No it seems to me, that age is not necessarily a factor, however propper
prebuy is mandatory. But selling the plane years from now has to be
considered (especially if it's not a classic).

Best Regards

Kai Glaesner