Some gliders safer than others?

On Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:48:16 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I only have anecdotes wrt survivability of 2-33 crashes, but your anecdote seems pretty favorable. I'd be happy to simply break an ankle and hop away from the front seat of a stalled and crashed glider.

It wasn't a stall spin, it was a full-stalled hard landing (launched into a dust devil and released early, then full aft stick until impact in the desert - by a commercial pilot giving a ride, no less. Amazingly poor airmanship!).

But without data of other similar events in other types of gliders, all our comments are just opinions. It could be that the 2-33 is the safest method of transportation known to man, but I "personally" doubt it.

I do find it amusing that one of the first defenses raised whenever the 2-33 is discussed is that "it's the safest glider to crash in!". Wow - that sure makes me want to jump in one! No thank you - I prefer gliders that let you avoid a crash - since apparently 2-33s are poor in that respect!

And since the NTSB reports show that you CAN get killed in a 2-33, despite it's low approach speed, spin resistance, and sturdy structure (?!), maybe it's fabled crash safety is just an urban myth.

Prove me wrong; I would love to see data to that effect.

Heck, now I'm going to have to fly our club's 2-33 this weekend just for kicks...you know, living on the edge and all...

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:12:18 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:11:23 PM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
Actually, I'd be more concerned with being impaled or having my abdomen
shredded by shards of broken fiberglass...

I understand that the Kevlar in the composite reduces this possibility.

I have a strong suspicion that carbon would do more damage to you than
glass, though that almost certainly applies to pure carbon or glass
structures.

All the mixed composites I've seen have been approximately 50:50 kevlar/
carbon rather than kevlar/glass, so they're unlikely to shatter.

Data point: a while back people were using 3mm carbon rod as wing joiners
in competition free flight model aircraft and having problems with the
joiners breaking if the model dethermalised onto concrete. A friend found
that when he pultruding his own joiners using a 95:5 mix of carbon:kevlar
tow the joiners remained intact.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 21:14 25 October 2013, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:12:18 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:11:23 PM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
Actually, I'd be more concerned with being impaled or having my
abdomen
shredded by shards of broken fiberglass...

I understand that the Kevlar in the composite reduces this possibility.

I have a strong suspicion that carbon would do more damage to you than
glass, though that almost certainly applies to pure carbon or glass
structures.

All the mixed composites I've seen have been approximately 50:50 kevlar/
carbon rather than kevlar/glass, so they're unlikely to shatter.

Data point: a while back people were using 3mm carbon rod as wing joiners

in competition free flight model aircraft and having problems with the
joiners breaking if the model dethermalised onto concrete. A friend found

that when he pultruding his own joiners using a 95:5 mix of carbon:kevlar

tow the joiners remained intact.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


There are 2 sides to safety
1 is the glider so un handy if you miss handle it ,it will bite
2 if you do get it wrong it will or won't it protect you.

Generally I think most post 1990 gliders have some protection and the
handling is ,if not benign ,is at least predictable
The earlier stuff was more of a compromise particularly the open class
where
it was accepted the handling was evil but look at the glide angle.
And how much crash protection can you expect from a K13 they are a steel
tube frame covered in fabric .
I have forgotten where this thread started by now but if a newly qualified

pilot is reading it and wondering what to buy
Get the newest you can from one of the major builders with a good trailer
Again from a major builder and ignore everything else you have protected
yourself and your investment as best you can.

Dr. Anthony Segal did a number of drop tests in the past.

I kindly received all his (OSTIV) publications from him.
I think he concluded, for example, that the ASK-13 without the front-wheel transfers the impact on the 'skate' directly onto the spine of the person in the
front seat.

Kinda like the Piper Cub - it's so slow it can just -barely- kill you...


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:48:16 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I only have anecdotes wrt survivability of 2-33 crashes, but your anecdote
seems pretty favorable. I'd be happy to simply break an ankle and hop
away from the front seat of a stalled and crashed glider.

It wasn't a stall spin, it was a full-stalled hard landing (launched into a
dust devil and released early, then full aft stick until impact in the
desert - by a commercial pilot giving a ride, no less. Amazingly poor
airmanship!).

But without data of other similar events in other types of gliders, all our
comments are just opinions. It could be that the 2-33 is the safest method
of transportation known to man, but I "personally" doubt it.

I do find it amusing that one of the first defenses raised whenever the 2-33
is discussed is that "it's the safest glider to crash in!". Wow - that sure
makes me want to jump in one! No thank you - I prefer gliders that let you
avoid a crash - since apparently 2-33s are poor in that respect!

And since the NTSB reports show that you CAN get killed in a 2-33, despite
it's low approach speed, spin resistance, and sturdy structure (?!), maybe
it's fabled crash safety is just an urban myth.

Prove me wrong; I would love to see data to that effect.

Heck, now I'm going to have to fly our club's 2-33 this weekend just for
kicks...you know, living on the edge and all...

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk

In article ,
flgliderpilot wrote:

Actually, I'd be more concerned with being impaled or having my abdomen
shredded by shards of broken fiberglass... for this reason I've always
thought old aluminum gliders with very low stall speeds were probably the
safest gliders. Just an impression though.

Aluminum aircraft skins generally shred or tear into very sharp edges in
a crash. Ask anyone who has survived a crash in a Blanik about that!

It seems that 1-26 crashes are often survived. Doubtless, this is, as
you suggest, due to low speed. However, what aluminum glider besides the
1-26 has such a low stall speed?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article ,
"kirk.stant" wrote:

On Thursday, October 24, 2013 7:50:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

One of my favorite tidbits on this topic is that the much maligned SGS 2-33
has been shown to survive a crash better than most. Part of the reason for
that is that a 2-33 will probably be going slower than most when it
crashes.

What do you base this conclusion on? I've seen several 2-33s that have been
crashed and sure wouldn't want to be in one! I know of a passenger that broke
an ankle in a stalled 2-33 crash that broke the plane in two (behind the wing
trailing edge), and having spent some time giving rides in the back seat of
those horrible things, would sure not want to be in one during a hard
landing!



Saw a 2-33 make a very hard landing once. Bent the landing gear up
sideways. The guy in the back seat went away on a backboard.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Friday, October 25, 2013 12:30:37 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

Heck, now I'm going to have to fly our club's 2-33 this weekend just for kicks...you know, living on the edge and all...

Well, I did just that yesterday. Took a tow in our just-annualled (after not flying for over a year) 2-33 (a real nice one, by the way, as 2-33s go) for a late afternoon flight. 3k ft tow, then 30 minutes in weak thermals (out lasting a K-13 and G-103 that launched after me), letting old muscle-memory fly the thing, and ending in a fun, no-spoiler slipped approach to a spot landing, stopping in front of the hangar.

What a piece of junk. No way to trim, either on tow (2-handed push) or thermalling (2-handed pull), having to be pretty much fully cross controlled to slow down enough in a 45 degree bank and work a weak thermal (full aft stick, full top aileron, using the rudder to push the nose around and setup the proper slip angle!), uncomfortable because of the low seatback and back seat rudder pedal housings...at least the visibility from the front is good (cuz it sure isn't from the back!). Everything seems to happen in slow motion - especially roll, since you only have a couple of inches of stick displacement before your leg gets in the way.

Now before you start yelling, I'll admit that I'm not a small guy (although I fit comfortably in my LS6) - and sure a small kid will have tons of room.. That is true. Funny, though, most of our current students are not young kids. They are older, more "mature" guys. Hmmm...

I must say it was fun slipping it down to the ground, because you can really SEE the ground come up and hold that slip to the very last moment...then straighten up, roll the mainwheel on the ground, then when ready let the skid do the work of stopping. Who needs whimpy spoilers or wheel brakes!

Did I have fun? Of course! The thing is a hoot to fly, just like it's fun to drive a really old car - say a 65 Beetle. Is it in any way representative of how you fly a modern glider? Hell no! Is it a good initial trainer? I'll let you CFIGs fight over that, but if my son or daughter suddenly wanted to learn to fly gliders, I would tell them to avoid the 2-33 like the plague until they had their rating, then get checked out in one just to see what it was like in the good old days, before computers, cell phones, or the interwebnet thingy!

Cheers!

Kirk
66

Originally Posted by kirk.stant

On Friday, October 25, 2013 12:30:37 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

Heck, now I'm going to have to fly our club's 2-33 this weekend just for kicks...you know, living on the edge and all...

Well, I did just that yesterday. Took a tow in our just-annualled (after not flying for over a year) 2-33 (a real nice one, by the way, as 2-33s go) for a late afternoon flight. 3k ft tow, then 30 minutes in weak thermals (out lasting a K-13 and G-103 that launched after me), letting old muscle-memory fly the thing, and ending in a fun, no-spoiler slipped approach to a spot landing, stopping in front of the hangar.

What a piece of junk. No way to trim, either on tow (2-handed push) or thermalling (2-handed pull), having to be pretty much fully cross controlled to slow down enough in a 45 degree bank and work a weak thermal (full aft stick, full top aileron, using the rudder to push the nose around and setup the proper slip angle!), uncomfortable because of the low seatback and back seat rudder pedal housings...at least the visibility from the front is good (cuz it sure isn't from the back!). Everything seems to happen in slow motion - especially roll, since you only have a couple of inches of stick displacement before your leg gets in the way.

Now before you start yelling, I'll admit that I'm not a small guy (although I fit comfortably in my LS6) - and sure a small kid will have tons of room.. That is true. Funny, though, most of our current students are not young kids. They are older, more "mature" guys. Hmmm...

I must say it was fun slipping it down to the ground, because you can really SEE the ground come up and hold that slip to the very last moment...then straighten up, roll the mainwheel on the ground, then when ready let the skid do the work of stopping. Who needs whimpy spoilers or wheel brakes!

Did I have fun? Of course! The thing is a hoot to fly, just like it's fun to drive a really old car - say a 65 Beetle. Is it in any way representative of how you fly a modern glider? Hell no! Is it a good initial trainer? I'll let you CFIGs fight over that, but if my son or daughter suddenly wanted to learn to fly gliders, I would tell them to avoid the 2-33 like the plague until they had their rating, then get checked out in one just to see what it was like in the good old days, before computers, cell phones, or the interwebnet thingy!

Cheers!

Kirk
66

That is some funny as.. sh...

Brad,

I believe it was Hailey, Idaho (Sun Valley Soaring). I don't know the
year. I've just heard the stories. It happened before I got involved
in the sport.


On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:05:14 -0700 (PDT), Brad
wrote:

on the suicide note subject. did that happen in Washington State?