ILS question

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...
I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


Assuming you were established on the localizer and were receiving vectors
to final, at 17 nm out you were 10 nm from NOLIN and you can descend to
4000.

In article ,
"Chris Brooks" wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

When you're established on a segment of the approach. How were you
navigating? Direct HGR, I'm guessing, in which case notice the "4000 to
Haigs Int" note on the plate. Cross HGR at 5000, descent to 4000
tracking the 089 radial outbound, do the PT at 4000 outside of Haigs,
then step down to 2900 at Haigs inbound.

Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

At 17 miles you were not within a published segment of the approach. ATC was
required to give you an altitude to maintain and which to cross HAIGS. A
proper clearance would have been "X miles from HAIGS. Cross HAIGS at, or
above, 4,000, cleared for the ILS Runway 27 approach." The word "established"
is inappropriate in this instance. If you did not receive such a clearance
you were obligated to maintain 5,000 and question the clearance because 5,000
is not a reasonable altitude to cross HAIGS.

REF: ATC Handbook 7110.65P, Paragraph 4-8-1 b.2., Example for Aircraft 2 under
that subparagraph.

And, if you were vectored to the localizer that far out, then Paragraph 5-9-4
2. would apply, which is the radar arrival equivalent of the first cite;
specifically the Example Aircraft 4 under that subparagraph.

This section of approach clearances has often been misapplied and was the
subject of an Air Traffic Bulletin about three years ago.

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...
I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


Assuming you were established on the localizer and were receiving vectors
to final, at 17 nm out you were 10 nm from NOLIN and you can descend to
4000.

How do you come up with that?

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
"Chris Brooks" wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

When you're established on a segment of the approach. How were you
navigating? Direct HGR, I'm guessing, in which case notice the "4000 to
Haigs Int" note on the plate. Cross HGR at 5000, descent to 4000
tracking the 089 radial outbound, do the PT at 4000 outside of Haigs,
then step down to 2900 at Haigs inbound.

His information is incomplete, but it sounds like a straight-in on an
unpublished extension of the LOC to me, based on "I was about 17 miles out..."

When does a published part of the approach begin? At HAIGS? Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?

Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.

wrote in message ...


Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the
approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

At 17 miles you were not within a published segment of the approach. ATC
was
required to give you an altitude to maintain and which to cross HAIGS. A
proper clearance would have been "X miles from HAIGS. Cross HAIGS at, or
above, 4,000, cleared for the ILS Runway 27 approach." The word
"established"
is inappropriate in this instance. If you did not receive such a
clearance
you were obligated to maintain 5,000 and question the clearance because
5,000
is not a reasonable altitude to cross HAIGS.

REF: ATC Handbook 7110.65P, Paragraph 4-8-1 b.2., Example for Aircraft 2
under
that subparagraph.

And, if you were vectored to the localizer that far out, then Paragraph
5-9-4
2. would apply, which is the radar arrival equivalent of the first cite;
specifically the Example Aircraft 4 under that subparagraph.

This section of approach clearances has often been misapplied and was the
subject of an Air Traffic Bulletin about three years ago.

wrote in message ...


Stan Prevost wrote:

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...
I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach
to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the
approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


Assuming you were established on the localizer and were receiving
vectors
to final, at 17 nm out you were 10 nm from NOLIN and you can descend to
4000.

How do you come up with that?


On the procedure track and in the PT area, within the 10 nm circle, there is
protected airspace at 4000. I don't know what is outside that. If he was
getting VTF, he should have been given an altitude restriction until
established, but he didn't tell us that part. Roy answered the full
procedure case.

wrote in message ...


Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the
approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

At 17 miles you were not within a published segment of the approach.

If you're vectored onto the approach course and cleared for the approach,
how close to the FAF do you have to be to consider yourself on a published
part of the course and thus permitted to descend to the charted intercept
altitude?

--Gary

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow the
regs as if you were IFR.


When does a published part of the approach begin?

On any thick black line.


At HAIGS?

Sure.

Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?

While doing the procedure turn.




Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.



Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.

Were you IFR at the time? If you were VFR then the controller does not ever
have to mention an altitude.