ILS question

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.

Can you provide a reference for that fact? So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated? Pilots discretion?



"Newps" wrote in message
...

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then
it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow
the
regs as if you were IFR.


When does a published part of the approach begin?

On any thick black line.


At HAIGS?

Sure.

Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?

While doing the procedure turn.




Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.



Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down
to
the altitude that is on the chart.

Were you IFR at the time? If you were VFR then the controller does not
ever
have to mention an altitude.

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a
clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.

Can you provide a reference for that fact?

What's the alternative? What else could you do? That clearance is
essentially a pilots discretion descent. All you gotta do is make the
crossing restriction which in this case is an at or above altitude. Most
pilots in this situation would just stay at your previous altitude until
intercepting the glideslope, then follow it down.


So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated?

Right now if you want.

Pilots discretion?

Yes.

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


What was your previous clearance?

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


You can descend to 4000 immediately.

"Newps" wrote:
We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow the
regs as if you were IFR.

From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would prefer that
controllers treat VFR practice approaches *exactly* like IFR ones. It's
a training exercise; the more things you do differently from real life,
the less effective the training is.

One thing I see fairly often is controllers not assigning altitudes on
VFR practice approaches. You end up with one of two scenarios, neither
of which is very useful:

1) You stay high until you're so far above the charted descent profile
that you can't possibly make it down in time.

2) You ask the controller for lower and get back, "altitude your
descretion, maintain VFR". A not so sharp student might start to think
that the altitude is ALWAYS his discretion in a situation like this.

In any case, you end up eating up brain cycles sorting out how high you
should be, when the issue would never come up on an IFR flight.

Roy Smith wrote in
:

"Newps" wrote:
We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what
did the controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches
while VFR then it doesn't matter what he said because the last thing
he'll say is maintain VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for
the controller to follow the regs as if you were IFR.

From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would prefer that
controllers treat VFR practice approaches *exactly* like IFR ones.
It's a training exercise; the more things you do differently from real
life, the less effective the training is.

One thing I see fairly often is controllers not assigning altitudes on
VFR practice approaches. You end up with one of two scenarios,
neither of which is very useful:

1) You stay high until you're so far above the charted descent profile
that you can't possibly make it down in time.

2) You ask the controller for lower and get back, "altitude your
descretion, maintain VFR". A not so sharp student might start to
think that the altitude is ALWAYS his discretion in a situation like
this.

In any case, you end up eating up brain cycles sorting out how high
you should be, when the issue would never come up on an IFR flight.



Every region must have different operating pratices because around here
VFR and IFR approaches are treated almost exactly the same except for the
phrase "maintain VFR".

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would prefer that
controllers treat VFR practice approaches *exactly* like IFR ones. It's
a training exercise; the more things you do differently from real life,
the less effective the training is.

I can understand that from the trainees point of view, but alas it isn't
that way.

In any case, you end up eating up brain cycles sorting out how high you
should be, when the issue would never come up on an IFR flight.

Yep.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...

Every region must have different operating pratices because around here
VFR and IFR approaches are treated almost exactly the same except for the
phrase "maintain VFR".


I would say it is facility by facility. Regions don't interpret the .65.
Some facilities place stricter standards on their controllers. We do that
to the tower controller.

Roy Smith wrote in
:

From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would
prefer that controllers treat VFR practice approaches
*exactly* like IFR ones. It's a training exercise; the
more things you do differently from real life, the less
effective the training is.

If you want it treated *exactly* like IFR, then file IFR.
Controllers don't know if you're an instructor training a
student, or just playing around, or what if you're VFR. If
you're IFR, then they have to do everything by the IFR book,
regardless of the weather. Do you feel that filing and flying
IFR is really that difficult, or restrictive, when teaching?

--
Regards,

Stan

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:06:02 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote:

If you're vectored onto the approach course and cleared for the approach,
how close to the FAF do you have to be to consider yourself on a published
part of the course and thus permitted to descend to the charted intercept
altitude?

There are several issues here. But they are pretty well covered, in my
opinion, in the AIM.

In the instance of being vectored onto the final approach course by ATC,
ATC should clear you for the approach only after you are established; or
give you an altitude to maintain until established.

If you are receiving vectors to final, (and ATC has certain requirements at
their end in order to allow that), then you can descend when you are
established (an admittedly somewhat fuzzy term, but I would interpret it as
not more than 1/2 scale deflection and moving to center) on the localizer.

If you are just receiving vectors on a random route, then you cannot
descend until you are on a "hard, black line". However, in the situation
being discussed, if it is not the specific "radar vectors to final" or a
radar approach, then the AIM states that: "For this purpose, the procedure
turn of a published IAP shall *NOT* be considered a segment of that IAP
until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon
which the procedure turn is predicated."

In the latter case, ATC's clearance should be to maintain a certain
altitude until reaching that fix. If it is not worded that way, you must
maintain the last assigned altitude until reaching (but I would clarify
with ATC if I had any questions).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)