ILS question

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:20:40 -0400, "Chris Brooks"
wrote:

When does a published part of the approach begin? At HAIGS?

Yes.

Can you be considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?


For the purposes of altitude, only if you are receiving "vectors to final"


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
...the AIM states that: "For this purpose, the procedure
turn of a published IAP shall *NOT* be considered a segment of that IAP
until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon
which the procedure turn is predicated."

Ah, that's the key rule here. Thanks for the reminder!

--Gary

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news
If you are just receiving vectors on a random route, then you cannot
descend until you are on a "hard, black line". However, in the situation
being discussed, if it is not the specific "radar vectors to final" or a
radar approach, then the AIM states that: "For this purpose, the procedure
turn of a published IAP shall *NOT* be considered a segment of that IAP
until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon
which the procedure turn is predicated."

There's still something that's confusing me. Immediately prior to the
sentence you quote (5-4-7b), the AIM says "for aircraft operating on
unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when
conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the
aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign
an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a
published route or instrument approach procedure".

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach? If so, what does it
mean in that situation to say "except when conducting a radar approach"? And
doesn't the requirement for an altitude-until-established (if you're not
already on a published segment) apply during a radar approach? So why the
"exception"?

The example that the AIM then cites exacerbates the confusion. The clearance
is "maintain 2000 until established on the localizer", but the subsequent
note suggests that the interim altitude is to be maintained until
established on a published segment, not just on the localizer.

--Gary

This is addressed in procedures written after an airline crash in
Virginia of a flight inbound to Dulles in the 1970's (?)
The cause leading up to the crash and procedures developed afterward
are a case study in when you can descend.
It has been studied and written up in many aviation periodicals in the
last 30 years.

In article ,
Stan Gosnell me@work wrote:

If you want it treated *exactly* like IFR, then file IFR.
Controllers don't know if you're an instructor training a
student, or just playing around, or what if you're VFR. If
you're IFR, then they have to do everything by the IFR book,
regardless of the weather. Do you feel that filing and flying
IFR is really that difficult, or restrictive, when teaching?

Sometimes the convenience or flexibility of VFR is useful. But, I see
your point. I get to pick the rules, but once I've done that, I need to
play by them; fair enough. All things considered, that's not bad. It's
not often you get to pick the rules :-)

Stan Prevost wrote:

wrote in message ...


Stan Prevost wrote:

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...
I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach
to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the
approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


Assuming you were established on the localizer and were receiving
vectors
to final, at 17 nm out you were 10 nm from NOLIN and you can descend to
4000.

How do you come up with that?


On the procedure track and in the PT area, within the 10 nm circle, there is
protected airspace at 4000. I don't know what is outside that. If he was
getting VTF, he should have been given an altitude restriction until
established, but he didn't tell us that part. Roy answered the full
procedure case.

But, it's not a procedure turn, it's a hold-in-lieu of. Where does the
protected airspace begin for a HIL?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:AYeAc.106416$3x.41993@attbi_s54...

There's still something that's confusing me. Immediately prior to the
sentence you quote (5-4-7b), the AIM says "for aircraft operating on
unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when
conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after
the
aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or
assign
an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of
a
published route or instrument approach procedure".

If you're being radar vectored and you're then issued an IFR approach
clearance, doesn't that constitute a radar approach? If so, what does it
mean in that situation to say "except when conducting a radar approach"?

Regarding radar approach - no, radar vectors do not constitute a 'radar
approach'. The term 'radar approach' refers to approaches using ASR and
PAR. It's in the AIM but don't have the reference.

Chris Brooks wrote:

When does a published part of the approach begin? At HAIGS? Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?


No.


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes. But, if you have an iota of doubt you request clarification.



Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.


That's what they're supposed to do.


wrote in message ...

Newps wrote:

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow the
regs as if you were IFR.

He stated he was "cleared for the ILS approach." Perhaps he was issued a VFR
restriction, but absent his having added the qualifier the discussion is more
meaningful assuming IFR. This isn't an inquistion. ;-)



When does a published part of the approach begin?

On any thick black line.

At HAIGS?

Sure.

Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?

While doing the procedure turn.

In the case, the hold in lieu course reversal. ;-)




Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.


Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.

Were you IFR at the time? If you were VFR then the controller does not ever
have to mention an altitude.

Chris Brooks wrote:

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Yes.

Can you provide a reference for that fact? So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated? Pilots discretion?


Did you read the ATC Handbook references I provided to you? The current ATC
Handbook is on the FAA's web site:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/index.htm