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No spin training in the US?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 2nd 05, 02:59 PM
Mark Morissette
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No spin training in the US?

What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com

  #2  
Old April 2nd 05, 03:10 PM
Daniel L. Lieberman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have been told that there was a high fatility rate during spin training
when it was being universally taught by people who did not specialize in
spin training. Now it is being taught by specialists. I did it 30+ years ago
when I got my private and thought it was fun.

As you know since you can't spin without stalling the lack of actual spins
is probably not a safety matter. Current training on weight and balance
emphasizes the importance of cg as a factor in inadvertent spins which
further alleviates the problem.


"Mark Morissette" wrote in message
...
What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com



  #3  
Old April 2nd 05, 03:39 PM
Jose
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Posts: n/a
Default

I enjoyed spins. I think they made me a safer pilot.

AAR they were stopped because there were too many accidents during the
training itself, and it was (overall) "safer" to just let pilots take
their chances - sort of like training for an engine-out by actually
killing the engine.

Jose
(r.a.s retained, though I don't follow that group)
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #4  
Old April 2nd 05, 03:54 PM
Doug
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Posts: n/a
Default

Of course teaching spins is still alllowed. I received spin training
during my private (3 spins). Spin training is required for CFI rating
(which I also have).

I think another consideration is that a lot of training aircraft are
not certified for spins.

But the bottom line was, after they discontinued the spin training,
fatalities from spin training went down. You've had some fatalities
from spin training up there in Canada. At any rate, we now have two
programs, otherwise fairly similar, one with spin training, one
without. Should be able to obtain fairly accurate information on which
program is producing fewer accidents.

  #5  
Old April 2nd 05, 04:55 PM
gregg
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Posts: n/a
Default

Spin training was not part of my PPl curriculum, so I simply went to a Navy
pilot buddy who was also a CFI and asked him to train me, which he did.

Very glad I did it. There are arguments pro and con on PPL spin training
but in this instance I made my own decision and got my own training.

Gregg


Mark Morissette wrote:

What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

  #6  
Old April 2nd 05, 05:28 PM
Dudley Henriques
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Posts: n/a
Default

As an American CFI specializing in both primary flight instruction and at
the other end of the spectrum; advanced aerobatic instruction all through my
career in aviation, naturally this issue is well known to me. I've dealt
with it with pilots, instructor seminars, with American aviation
manufacturers and with the FAA here in the states.
After doing all this, my opinion is simply one of many diversified opinions
on this subject.
The short answer is the most popular. As stated, it simply assumes that if
you can avoid the stall; and/or recover from the stall, you can avoid the
spin. Carried a step further, it assumes also that if you possess knowledge
of spins coupled with training in spin awareness, you are safe in the air
environment.
On the other side of this coin, you have a bad incident and accident record
in the United States when dealing with the instructor/student/spin scenario.
These factors couple to produce what we have now for dealing with the
stall/spin accident scenario.
The problem with all this is that it attempts to handle the problem, but in
reality is nothing more than a compromise in training that addresses
specific concerns;
1. It attempts to satisfy the training need while avoiding the area of
highest danger in the training environment; the instructor/student/spin
scenario.
2. It just happens to be extremely appealing to the aircraft manufacturers
lobby in the United States, who have a vested sales interest in projecting
pilot training in a comfortable and favorable condition.

In my opinion, based on my exposure to this environment at all levels, I
believe the present condition concerning spin training in the United States
falls short of what it could have been.
In other words, there can be no doubt considering the accident stats, that
accidents have been avoided by not requiring spin training for certification
as a pilot, but in my opinion, the average proficiency level and overall
confidence level in the pilot community would be higher if spin training was
a requirement. It's that omnipresent tradeoff that always seems to rear it's
ugly head when safety and training comfort levels conflict. Combine this
with some accident data resulting from the instructor/student/spin equation,
and add to that a strong manufacturing lobby seeking comfort levels for
pilot training to make the training as attractive as possible to a
prospective sales marketing base, and you have what we have now in the
United States concerning spin training.
As an aside;
I recommend highly that EVERY student pilot engaged in flight training in
the United States, take it on themselves personally, to seek out a competent
instructor and a suitable aircraft and take some active spin training. Not
only will this training make you a better all around pilot, but it will as
well fill what I consider the most important gap left out of the United
States attitude on spin training; that being a FAMILIARITY through actual
experience with the spin environment. Taking the surprise and potential
panic out of the unusual attitude equation and replacing that with a
familiarity gained through actual hands on experience in the unusual
attitude environment greatly increases the odds of survival for a pilot
suddenly injected into that environment. It shortens the reaction time and
tends to rote the reaction in the correct direction.
Summation on this issue in my opinion is that there is no substitute for
hands on experience in the unusual attitude environment and I can truthfully
say that in my over 50 years of dealing with these issues I have never met a
single pilot.....not ONE single pilot, who wasn't a better BASIC pilot after
having taken unusual attitude and spin training. This to me says it all. You
can be safe............or you can be safer!!! Think about it!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)






"Mark Morissette" wrote in message
...
What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com



  #7  
Old April 2nd 05, 06:19 PM
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dudley Henriques wrote:
As an American CFI specializing in both primary flight instruction and at
the other end of the spectrum; advanced aerobatic instruction all through my
career in aviation, naturally this issue is well known to me. I've dealt
with it with pilots, instructor seminars, with American aviation
manufacturers and with the FAA here in the states.

{snip}

Summation on this issue in my opinion is that there is no substitute for
hands on experience in the unusual attitude environment and I can truthfully
say that in my over 50 years of dealing with these issues I have never met a
single pilot.....not ONE single pilot, who wasn't a better BASIC pilot after
having taken unusual attitude and spin training. This to me says it all. You
can be safe............or you can be safer!!! Think about it!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired


Yes, typical government approach of throwing the baby out with the bath
water. The problem wasn't spin training per se, it was instructors not
proficient in how to conduct spin training. So, rather than address
that root problem, the Feds simply removed the requirement and
discouraged the practice entirely.

I certainly agree that learning to avoid stalls is essential training,
but the reality is that inadvertant stalls still happen and pilots
aren't properly training to handle them. I'd have much rather seen the
FAA focus on developing proper spin training procedures and instructor
training.


Matt
  #8  
Old April 2nd 05, 06:25 PM
William W. Plummer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mark Morissette wrote:

What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com

You can take an aerobatic course or maybe just a few lessons. Or, get a
glider certificate where incipient spins are taught.
  #9  
Old April 2nd 05, 08:06 PM
Cecil Chapman
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Posts: n/a
Default

I'm actually looking forward to experiencing them for my CFI training.

Having said that I will say (and it's been done to death) that if the goal
is to prevent deaths from inadvertent spins I believe the effort is doomed
to failure in that almost all the fatalities occur in the well-know
base-to-final scenario where there simply isn't enough vertical distance to
recover. Better to teach coordination in turns and stall recognition,
recovery.

Also there is the 'practical' side of how many student pilots would we lose
after their introduction to spins. Goodness knows, initial exposure to
stalls is already a big issue with fresh students.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -


  #10  
Old April 2nd 05, 09:26 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

snip
Also there is the 'practical' side of how many student pilots would we
lose
after their introduction to spins. Goodness knows, initial exposure to

stalls is already a big issue with fresh students.

Cecil
The apprehension is quite common and normal. The difference is in how a
CFI deals with it and adjusts the training technique to make a student
comfortable with stalls. I feel the same is true with spins.
As a CFI since 1966, and having done literally thousands of spins in a
variety of aircraft, I have long touted the value of good spin
training. My first spin was on my first solo when I was out doing
practice stalls and got sloppy and ended up in a spin. It fascinated me
and I did several more before I went back in to do some T/Go's. when my
CFI asked where I had gone, I told him about the spins, and he simply
said, "OK" and that was that. No big deal. Of course that was in the
late 50's when spins and training in them were a common place thing.
I still maintain the reason for the FAA backing down from spin training
was due to the people making the regs were afraid to do them because of
their own lack of training or proficiency in spins in that transition
time of the 60's/70's.
Most recently I did a short spin session with a student before he went
for his check ride. He told me he was really nervous about it from the
horror stories he had read. I assured him we were not going to do
anything dangerous and he'd be shocked at how relatively mild the whole
thing would be after the fact. Pretty much turned out that way and
calmed his fears that a spin was tatamount to a smoking hole in the
ground.
It almost falls in the same catagory with tailwheel training and
finding someone capable of teaching in them. It has turned into a
mysterious arcane art demanding superior pilot skills, etc, etc, ad
naseum. Such nonsense. Even though spins are required of the CFI
applicant, I often wonder how many of them actually have done them
rather than just get a sign off by a CFI who is afraid to do them and
so the problem propagates itself.
More opportunity for hangar talk.....
Ol Shy & Bashful





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