Is there any way to avoid ice other than staying on the ground?

No, I believe that defense has been tried.

Mike
MU-2


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:17:08 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Others have offered practical information. I would add that it is illegal
to fly a airplane without known ice certification into forecast icing
conditions.

Mike
MU-2

Mike,

In the nit-picky tradition, would that not be true only if the a/c had a
placard or if the POH forbade it?


--ron

Others have offered practical information. I would add that it is
illegal
to fly a airplane without known ice certification into forecast icing
conditions.

In the nit-picky tradition, would that not be true only if the a/c had a
placard or if the POH forbade it?

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
No, I believe that defense has been tried.

This one runs and runs...

AFAICS, the judgements are about violation of an aircraft limitation, or
careless and reckless operation, or both. In those cases where there was no
aircraft limitation (e.g. Boger EA-4525), the defendant had still attempted
a flight that was sufficiently dumb for it to be careless and reckless. It
doesn't necessarily follow that merely flying an aircraft without known ice
certification into forecast icing conditions is, on its own, careless and
reckless.

It seems a pity that the NTSB's working definition of "known icing
conditions" has been crafted in response to the far-fetched defenses of
defendants who, on the whole, seem to have exhibited airmanship that falls
far below the standard that we'd expect from most contributors here. If you
argue extremes hard enough (e.g. that it's fine to continue a flight with
significant ice accretion in a non-deiced aircraft on the basis that it's
not 100% certain that there's ice in the next cloud so it can't be "known")
you're bound to get some fairly robust responses.

Julian Scarfe

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 04:49:55 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

No, I believe that defense has been tried.

Mike
MU-2

Yes, but I thought those violations were for "careless and reckless" and
not for a violation of an (non-existent in the case) aircraft limitation.

I've never heard of, for example, someone being violated (in a non-deiced
small GA a/c under Part 91) for encountering ice, issuing a PIREP, and
asking ATC for a deviation in order to escape. Have you?


--ron

Turbulence usually signifies cumuloform clouds and clear, instead of
rime, ice. Clear ice, as you no doubt know, is much worse than rime.

Yes, except in the winter. Here in PA (I live just 50 miles north of
Williamsport) we often have strong turbulence in the winter with no
clouds at all. A clear day with 40 knots at say 6000 feet over the
mountains will make it very rought down low with no clouds at all.

Yes, I've experienced that both winter and summer, over these
mountains, but I meant in IFR. And about 50 years ago, when I was in
the marines, I hit very strong turbulence at 10,000 in CAVU wx over
Florida, of all places! Not many ridges there.

vince

You are probably right. I don't recall the exact case, I just remember
reading somewhere that a pilot tried using this defense and it didn't work..
IMO the FAA should either really enforce every regulation or it should get
rid of the ones it isn't going to enforce.

Mike
MU-2


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 04:49:55 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

No, I believe that defense has been tried.

Mike
MU-2

Yes, but I thought those violations were for "careless and reckless" and
not for a violation of an (non-existent in the case) aircraft limitation.

I've never heard of, for example, someone being violated (in a non-deiced
small GA a/c under Part 91) for encountering ice, issuing a PIREP, and
asking ATC for a deviation in order to escape. Have you?


--ron

The problem is the elusive nature of icing.
You may fly through an area of forcast icing without picking up
anything. Another aircraft ten minutes ahead or ten minutes behind you
on the same airway and altitude could pick up a bunch.
Another example was here in Central Ohio last Thursday evening.
A friend and I were going to go up practice approaches until we called
for a briefing. An approaching cold front brought with it a forcast for
icing from 4000 to 8000 feet. That wasn't so bad except that the
ceilings were 1500 to 3000 feet throughout the area. Then there was the
Springfield report of 500 feet overcast and light rain with no precip
showing on the radar.
We elected not to fly.

Paul Tomblin wrote:
I cancelled a flight yesterday because on top of strong gusty winds there
was an Airmet Zulu for light to moderate mixed and rime ice, and on top of
that the destination was reporting layers at about 2,000 and 4,000 feet, a
freezing level of about 3,000 feet, with occassional ceilings of 800 feet
and rain. It seemed to me that I could probably fly between or above the
layers en-route, but I was worried about the possibility of having to
descend through two layers of wet (and possibly icy) clouds and maybe have
to do an approach to minimums in very gusty winds.

I know I did the right thing based on my low level of experience, but any
ice tips from the experts, especially up here in the Great Lakes area.

If you pick up ice, YOU are the Expert! Bottom line, if there is an
icing airmet, or you suspect ice, don't go. Ice can bring you DOWN!
I know I did the right thing based on my low level of experience, but any
ice tips from the experts, especially up here in the Great Lakes area.