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Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?



 
 
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  #31  
Old December 26th 06, 06:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Mark Hansen wrote:
On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:

C J Campbell wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):



Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.


Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.


Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR?



Because you're flying a practice IAP.


If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).



That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.

At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.


If it is an airport you're familiar with, and you have no doubt they
accept it, fine. There are a lot of noise sensitive airprots, at least
in my area, where it is presumed you will follow the traffic patterns in
use and established noise abatement procedures when the place is VFR.

If uncertain, it is follow to descent to 450 feet, HAA without a very
clear understanding.
  #32  
Old December 26th 06, 06:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?


I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.



The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


The regulation is written for flight conditions less than minimums.
Like I said, if he had the flight visibility for circling he would be
quite legal in doing what he proposed. And, the gears were shifted to
an NPA for the question.
  #33  
Old December 26th 06, 10:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
fcoav8r
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Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Jose and Mark

I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
did not descend below circling minimums at any time.

Mark

The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
clarifies the situation.

I once did a CTL at the end of a VOR app on a very convective rainy
night. I made the runway but the Lear behind couldn't and missed.
Should I have been in the previously described situation I would have
rather done the 360 circling than going back into that s..t again.


Mark Hansen wrote:
On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?


I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.


The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA


  #34  
Old December 27th 06, 03:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

fcoav8r wrote:
Jose and Mark

I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
did not descend below circling minimums at any time.

Mark

The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
clarifies the situation.


And, if he has the required flight visibility for circle-to-land
minimums, and has not yet reached the MAP, he can climb tp the
circle-to-land MDA, then cirle to land, provided he still has the
require flight visibility and has sight of the airport.
  #35  
Old December 27th 06, 04:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll
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Posts: 1,477
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?


"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?


JAN approach wasn't giving him landing instructions, they were giving him
circling instructions. Circling instructions are part of the approach
clearance.




  #36  
Old December 27th 06, 10:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?



JAN approach wasn't giving him landing instructions, they were giving him
circling instructions. Circling instructions are part of the approach
clearance.


If you would read the thread you would find out that was resolved
several days ago.
  #37  
Old December 29th 06, 05:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
franfuan
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Posts: 1
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?


Sam Spade ha escrito:

And, if he has the required flight visibility for circle-to-land
minimums, and has not yet reached the MAP, he can climb tp the
circle-to-land MDA, then cirle to land, provided he still has the
require flight visibility and has sight of the airport.


I believe you're right on the spot Sam.

So when shooting an ILS I memorize also the LOC and CTL minimums in
anticipation of plan B or C.

Happy New Year

 




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