Ungrateful Americans Unworthy of the French

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...

France was defeated by Germany in WWII (despite putting up a fight
that was more heroic than the Americans had done in 100 years).

WWI was a draw.


It's not a draw when one side surrenders. Where's the other one?

Germany surrendered not just to France. It collapsed fighting against
the combined forces of France, the UK, and the USA. Otherwise one can
come up with silly examples of, for example, Canada or Brazil
defeating Germany in World War II (both had declared war).

BM

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...

He means the Franco-Prussian war.


That's one. What are the other two?

France was defeated by Germany in WWII (despite putting up a fight
that was more heroic than the Americans had done in 100 years).


Hardly, the US Civil war had only happened 50 years previously
and the cost to the US in terms of losses as a percentage of
population far higher than France sustained in 1940.

I meant the last 100 years, prior to today. It was my lack of clarity
here though.

Indeed one hesitates to call the French defence heroic,
individual French units certainly fought heroically and noone
doubts the courage of the french soldier but the
army, as a result of poor organisation and leadership,
did not put up a good performance.

I differentiate heroism from organization and leadership. Poland's
forces were well organized on the "platoon" level, but in general were
extremely poorly organized (mobilization, for example, was a
tragicomic mess). Yet the Poles may have been the most heroic army in
World War II.

regards,

BM


WWI was a draw. Probably Germany WOULD have won had the Americans not
entered the war. But, as the articles showed, not because of French
lack of courage or fighting prowess.


agreed.

Keith

In article ,
(The Black Monk) wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...

France was defeated by Germany in WWII (despite putting up a fight
that was more heroic than the Americans had done in 100 years).

WWI was a draw.


It's not a draw when one side surrenders. Where's the other one?

Germany surrendered not just to France. It collapsed fighting against
the combined forces of France, the UK, and the USA.

But, unless you can show that France in WW1 surrendered to Germany,
you can't very well count WW1 as a win for Germany and a loss for France.

"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...

Germany surrendered not just to France. It collapsed fighting against
the combined forces of France, the UK, and the USA.


The point is you can't count WWI as a win for Germany and a loss for France.

"Ugly Bob" wrote in message ...

Actually it's Germany 3 France 0.

Pierre-Henri was probably refering to the war of 1870,

Though, technically, Germany didn't exist until 1871, after the war.

Thanks to the French victories during the Napoleonic Wars, Germany
didn't exist as a unified state 1806-1871, but on the other hand:
Germany remained split, after 1871 in two empires, one led by Prussia
and one led by Austria.

European history knowledge is understandably in short supply in the US
(as is actually knowledge on US history in Europe).

But we suffer with you, and hope you will recover soon, so you can get
your priorities right. Whom do you have the most in common with?
Oppressive regimes in South America and the Muslim World, or the
democracies in Europe?

"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...

He means the Franco-Prussian war.


That's one. What are the other two?

France was defeated by Germany in WWII (despite putting up a fight
that was more heroic than the Americans had done in 100 years).


Hardly, the US Civil war had only happened 50 years previously
and the cost to the US in terms of losses as a percentage of
population far higher than France sustained in 1940.

I meant the last 100 years, prior to today. It was my lack of clarity
here though.


In which case the heroic defence of Bastogne by the US airborne
forces has to be counted as does the massive defeat inflicted
by Patton's army in the breakout from Normandy

Lets not forget either the courage and doggedness the USMC
showed at Guadalcanal , Tarawa and a dozen other islands
when fighting a determined enemy unafraid of death.

Indeed one hesitates to call the French defence heroic,
individual French units certainly fought heroically and noone
doubts the courage of the french soldier but the
army, as a result of poor organisation and leadership,
did not put up a good performance.

I differentiate heroism from organization and leadership. Poland's
forces were well organized on the "platoon" level, but in general were
extremely poorly organized (mobilization, for example, was a
tragicomic mess). Yet the Poles may have been the most heroic army in
World War II.


We are talking of the French not the poles and for the most part
the French army was not especially well organised even at platoon level.

Keith

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:38:21 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"The Black Monk" wrote in message
. com...

Germany surrendered not just to France. It collapsed fighting against
the combined forces of France, the UK, and the USA.


The point is you can't count WWI as a win for Germany and a loss for France.

Actually, you can. The Germans clearly defeated the French Army.

Al Minyard

On 8 Oct 2003 22:53:14 -0700, (Magnus Link) wrote:

"Ugly Bob" wrote in message ...

Actually it's Germany 3 France 0.

Pierre-Henri was probably refering to the war of 1870,

Though, technically, Germany didn't exist until 1871, after the war.

Thanks to the French victories during the Napoleonic Wars, Germany
didn't exist as a unified state 1806-1871, but on the other hand:
Germany remained split, after 1871 in two empires, one led by Prussia
and one led by Austria.

European history knowledge is understandably in short supply in the US
(as is actually knowledge on US history in Europe).

But we suffer with you, and hope you will recover soon, so you can get
your priorities right. Whom do you have the most in common with?
Oppressive regimes in South America and the Muslim World, or the
democracies in Europe?

Our priorities are "right" now. The fact that France is willing to
support terrorists so that the attacks will occur elsewhere does not
make France our friend.

And your country most certainly does *not* "suffer with us". If you do
personally, I thank you.

Al Minyard

just wanted to add that WWI lasted just 4 years It's quite enough
already.
Apart from that, nice article
Hey Al Minyard : you seem to forget it was mostly French and European
philosophists who made it possible to write the US constitution,
through their ideas. You OWE to Europe your very existence as a
democracy. And don't pretend otherwise.


The Black Monk wrote:
The French


BM


--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net

-How about Finsbury Park ? Great Britain is your great ally, though it
is THE meeting place for islamic terrorists. That doesn't make Great
Britain your enemy.
Supporting terrorists isn't something done in France. There were many
terrorist attempts in the past 15 years or so, almost all from islamic
terrorists.
By the way, the US right-wing extremists seem to be good at blowing
buildings too. Now who's producing/supporting terrorists ?

Alan Minyard wrote:
Our priorities are "right" now. The fact that France is willing to
support terrorists so that the attacks will occur elsewhere does not
make France our friend.

And your country most certainly does *not* "suffer with us". If you do
personally, I thank you.

Al Minyard


--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net