sitka spruce

On 19 Feb 2004 13:28:10 -0800, (al pernell) wrote:

anyone know of good sources for spruce stock other than Wicks and Aircraft Spruce


I just read this entire thread and found it interesting. The last
airplane I built was made out of Canadian White Pine, which nobody
here mentions. The white pine in northern Canada (where it's cold)
grows very slowly and has very dense ring structure. It is almost as
strong as Sitka Spruce with just a slight weight penalty.

It worked real well. I flew the airplane for 5 years with absolutely
no problems. The planking was of birch and mahogany ply, but the
main load bearing portions of the structure were Canadian white pine.

BWB

Just out of curiosity, what are the Japanese using all the sitka spruce for?

--------------------------------------------------------

The Good Stuff goes into musical instruments. (Sitka Spruce is one of the most
resonant woods.) The remainder is used for a number of traditionally oriental
applications such as hashi (ie, throw-away chop-sticks), fast food containers,
bath tubs (ie, ofuro), buckets and so forth.

Japanese manufacturers expect to have depleated all of the easily raped stands
of the Tongas National Forest within the next ten years or so and are already
working on deals to do the same in Siberia. Presently they pay US taxpayers an
average of $1.70 PER TREE and clear-cutting is their preferred method of
logging.

Yeah, I know -- that can't be right.

Pick your wx, fly over the islands they've clear-cut and see for yourself.
Wonderful education.

As a point of interest, the new laws pushed through following the disasterous
fires in southern California -- laws that fast-track the clear-cutting of
forests deemed a threat to populated area -- was used to issue special permits
for additional logging in the Tongas National Forest.

Further proof that America has the best government money can buy :-)

-R.S.Hoover

Veeduber wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what are the Japanese using all the sitka spruce for?

--------------------------------------------------------

The Good Stuff goes into musical instruments. (Sitka Spruce is one of the most
resonant woods.) The remainder is used for a number of traditionally oriental
applications such as hashi (ie, throw-away chop-sticks), fast food containers,
bath tubs (ie, ofuro), buckets and so forth.

Japanese manufacturers expect to have depleated all of the easily raped stands
of the Tongas National Forest within the next ten years or so and are already
working on deals to do the same in Siberia. Presently they pay US taxpayers an
average of $1.70 PER TREE and clear-cutting is their preferred method of
logging.

Yeah, I know -- that can't be right.

Pick your wx, fly over the islands they've clear-cut and see for yourself.
Wonderful education.

As a point of interest, the new laws pushed through following the disasterous
fires in southern California -- laws that fast-track the clear-cutting of
forests deemed a threat to populated area -- was used to issue special permits
for additional logging in the Tongas National Forest.

Further proof that America has the best government money can buy :-)

-R.S.Hoover

You know Bob, I love my country.

But I do fear my government.


Richard

Badwater Bill wrote:

On 19 Feb 2004 13:28:10 -0800, (al pernell) wrote:

anyone know of good sources for spruce stock other than Wicks and Aircraft Spruce

I just read this entire thread and found it interesting. The last
airplane I built was made out of Canadian White Pine, which nobody
here mentions. The white pine in northern Canada (where it's cold)
grows very slowly and has very dense ring structure. It is almost as
strong as Sitka Spruce with just a slight weight penalty.

It worked real well. I flew the airplane for 5 years with absolutely
no problems. The planking was of birch and mahogany ply, but the
main load bearing portions of the structure were Canadian white pine.

BWB

Sounds perfect!
You think they'd take $1.70 a tree?

Richard

Presently they pay US taxpayers an average of $1.70 PER TREE ...

If anybody is interested, here is the rest of this story:

http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0116.htm

The upshot is that it seems to be more a combination of Congressional
stupidity (spelled ANILCA), Forest Service buracratic stupidity, and history
conspiring against us.

In Veeduber wrote:

Japanese manufacturers expect to have depleated all of the easily
raped stands of the Tongas National Forest within the next ten years
or so and are already working on deals to do the same in Siberia.
Presently they pay US taxpayers an average of $1.70 PER TREE and clear-
cutting is their preferred method of logging.

**** the US taxpayers. Those are Alaskan trees that belong to Alaskans
and it is Alaskans who make their living harvesting them. You wanna
whine about the evil forest service, the timber industry, and the japs
cutting down trees look no further than the wooden house that you
probably live in, the wooden airplanes you build, the newspaper/
magazines you read or the t.p. that you wipe yourself with every day.
If you are gonna cast stones take a good look in the mirror first.

Furthermore, I submit that $1.70 a tree is a hell of a deal for the
federal government. Standing timber in and of itself is worth not a
whole lot, particularly in Alaska. It is expensive to harvest and
expensive to get out, as compared to other places in the world. It
takes loggers, engineers, pilots, mechanics, heavy equipment operators,
etc. ad nauseum in addition to the businesses and individuals who supply
them. All of these people pay taxes to the federal government in
comparison to which the $1.70/tree pales. Development of natural
resources helps to lower your taxes, boosts the local and national
economy, and makes available the products we all use in our daily lives.

One of the reasons clearcutting is usually the method or choice is
because it is one of the most ecologically sound methods when promoting
the long term health of the forest is a priority. The selective cutting
practices that are currently being advocated are beneficial from an
aesthetic standpoint only. The best timber is systematically removed,
leaving only the sick, genetically inferior, and the damaged (which are
now vulnerable to disease) trees in their place. When a tree is felled
among other, standing trees it inevitably damages everything in its path,
often leaving hanging widowmakers which can be deadly for weeks or even
years into the future. But, the forest still looks pretty which is all
that the self proclaimed environmental types really care about. By
contrast, in a properly done clearcut, whichever species do grow back
will have a more normal genetic diversity making them less susceptible
to disease, they will harbor a broader variety of wildlife than an old
growth forest. And the new trees will be available for re-harvest in
decades, rather than in centuries. Yeah, it is ugly visually for the
first few years after harvest. I would rather my kids and grandkids see
the forest healthy again in their day, rather than eventually stunted by
the spread of disease and the removal of the best stock.

Finally, I reject the notion that Alaska should somehow be locked up
like some sort of demented national park where no development is allowed.
Those of us who are here have to make a living in spite of the fact that
it would be more convenient to the Sierra Club et al if we just went
away to live in some city in the 48 and quit filling up their playground.
Resource development in Alaska has benefitted from 200+ years of
experience down south and elsewhere, and for the most part we do it
better and we do it cleaner than it has ever been done before. The
national forests are just that; they are not parks. They exist to be
used beneficially and timber sales are an important part of that use.
There are millions of acres of old growth forest set aside in national
parks that will NEVER be touched and that is as it should be.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- son and grandson of loggers

Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Nobody seems to have mentioned yellow poplar. Last time I checked the specs. I
remember it came in at about 5% over spruce in strength-to-weight. However, I
have never been able to find a grading standard for it. As of yet, I have no
idea if the sticks they sell at Lowe's and Home Cheap-O would get the job
done... even for an unpowered glider. No way to know how many rings per inch,
straightness varaiations, etc. are acceptable. Ditto on the Doug. Fir that is
stocked in the same bins. If anyone knows what these standards are, please
e-mail me.

I went with Sitka spruce in my Wright machine because of historical accuracy...
but even then, the Wrights used West Virginia Silver Spruce, not Sitka. I
still havn't figured out exactly which species that is, but it seemed work well
for them.
On a side note, Wilbur and Orville also made use of white pine twice. Once in
the1900 glider, and again in the 1904 Flyer. It worked OK for the very limited
performances of 1900, but in the 1904 machine, it was all eventually replaced.
Seems that pine had a tendancy to shatter when the plane crashed, while spruce
was much more resiliant.

Harry

On 22 Feb 2004 14:42:05 GMT, (Harry Burns) wrote:

Nobody seems to have mentioned yellow poplar. Last time I checked the specs. I
remember it came in at about 5% over spruce in strength-to-weight. However, I
have never been able to find a grading standard for it. As of yet, I have no
idea if the sticks they sell at Lowe's and Home Cheap-O would get the job
done... even for an unpowered glider. No way to know how many rings per inch,
straightness varaiations, etc. are acceptable. Ditto on the Doug. Fir that is
stocked in the same bins. If anyone knows what these standards are, please
e-mail me.

I went with Sitka spruce in my Wright machine because of historical accuracy...
but even then, the Wrights used West Virginia Silver Spruce, not Sitka. I
still havn't figured out exactly which species that is, but it seemed work well
for them.
On a side note, Wilbur and Orville also made use of white pine twice. Once in
the1900 glider, and again in the 1904 Flyer. It worked OK for the very limited
performances of 1900, but in the 1904 machine, it was all eventually replaced.
Seems that pine had a tendancy to shatter when the plane crashed, while spruce
was much more resiliant.

Harry


I was interested in working with the spruce that grows in the Wasatch
range of southern Utah two summers ago. A bark-beetle killed all the
old 200 year old trees three years ago and devastated the forest. I
took a chain saw and cut a 10 foot section of a downed tree into some
ATV loading ramps that are about 3 inches thick by 12 inches wide and
10 feet long. They dried out in a couple months and I still use them.
It's amazing how light they are and how strong. I often demonstrate
to people who are with me when I use them how light they are. People
are amazed. They seem almost like balsa. They are roughly 2.5 cubic
feet of wood but even a small woman can lift them and put them into
place on my pick up real easy. Yet, I can drive an 800 pound ATV with
me on it, full of fuel and it only bends a bit.

Strong stuff.

I have no idea what species these spruce were either. The forest is
completely repopulated with younger trees now and in 100 years it will
all look the same. I'll bet anyone could use these for airplane
building. All you'd have to do is have a mill cut some raw stock and
simply test it for bending moments, shear, compressibility and tensile
strength.

Harry:

Did you participate on that team who built the Wright Flier they tried
to fly on the anniversary of the Wright's flight?

BWB

"Del Rawlins" wrote

**** the US taxpayers. Those are Alaskan trees that belong to Alaskans
and it is Alaskans who make their living harvesting them.


Well said Del!

The lower 48 thinks of Alaska as their own personal wilderness preserve.
It's OK to build another few condos in California, so long as Alaska is
locked up to assuage their sins. This place belongs to US! Anyone not
willing to endure the winters, should have no say here.

Still seems a shame to grind up old growth Sitka Spruce and use them for
paper diapers though. We've tried to do the "value added" thing before, but
this is just too obvious.

The Minimax line of kits use mostly pine. I didnt get any spruce in
mine. Good clear pine and Douglas fir is very adequate for airplanes.