Flapped Glider Recommendations...

On Jan 7, 11:05*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

By my characterization you've listed 3 1st generation glass 15-meter
ships. *Though Mini-Nimbii C models do have carbon (I believe), the
basic design is 1st-generation 15-meter. *Each on your list pretty much
uses the same Wortmann FX 67K 150/170 airfoils.

Right, although at different thicknesses, empty weights, control
layouts, cockpit designs, tail sizes, and such. ;-)

Add to that list Slingsby Vegas and Zunis. *

I have never heard of the Vegas - will have to look it up.

Before I bought my Russia I went to So. Cal. and looked at the very
last Zuni II ever built. I didn't fly it; but messed around with it
on the ground for an hour or two. The push-pull stick (even though
this one was center-mounted) did NOT feel good to me - the thought of
having to move my whole arm (with the sensitivity of an all-flying
tail) just looked like it would make for VERY little feel/feedback.
Also, I am 6' 1" and 200 lbs - and my legs interfered a bit with the
flap operating crank. I concluded that the Zuni is a cool ship, but
not for me.

...and yes, if the LS-3 flaperons didn't require so much darned lead,
I would totally be happy with its rigging! *chuckle*

I would be curious to hear more information about how the LS fittings
are "semi-automatic". I've seen guys with PIKs and ASW's fishing
around behind their seat for control hookups and it just didnt look
like any fun! :-P

...My Russia has totally spoiled me, rigging-wise. With _no_ support
gear besides a stool, I can single-handedly pull my wings from the
trailer, carry one under my arms, and hook it up. Total time to rig
(without tape): 7 minutes by myself. 5 minutes with a helper!

There are a couple of Libelles at our field, and while I fit in them
(just barely, but comfortably) I would like to try for something a
little newer (though an H-301 is definitely on my list of
possibilities).

Since I also help friends rig an Apis or two, then watch G102s and
PIKs and an Open Cirrus struggle to get hooked up, I'm a bit gunshy
about heavy and non-automatic-hookup aircraft. Perhaps unnecessarily
so?

When it comes to performance - if you really think the performance is
that close, then I'd put more emphasis on handling. Which of these
aircraft do folks think is the most maneuverable / responsive?

Thanks for all of the advice, and I'm open to more!

Take care,

--Noel

"noel.wade" wrote in message
:

SNIP


I would be curious to hear more information about how the LS fittings
are "semi-automatic". I've seen guys with PIKs and ASW's fishing
around behind their seat for control hookups and it just didnt look
like any fun! :-P






Noel,



The flapperons (LS3) or the flaps (LS3-a) connect by aligning a pin on
the side of the fuselage into a receptacle in the edge of the
flap(peron).



On the LS3-a you also need to connect the ailerons (L'Hottellier
fittings) under the turtledeck and pin them or engage the safety
sleeves. This is probably what you remember seeing people work on.



However, with just a small amount of practice, one can do them by feel
only, safety them, and test them in a _very_ short time.



If it takes me longer than 25-30 seconds (TOTAL! Including safetying and
testing) then I am not paying attention. The first time I did it, it
seemed like it took me 15 minutes to do it. The second time it took
only a couple of minutes. After a few more times, well under a minute.



So, at least on an LS3-a, it just is not an issue.





Larry Goddard

Former LS3-a driver

Thanks for the LS info, Larry!

Ray -

Great, but how do I find out how "nice" the trailer is without flying
around the country and looking at each one of them? :-P Everyone says
they have a "good" trailer - but the definition of "good" seems to
vary a lot based on who's selling and who's buying! heheheh...

I totally agree, though. Our club used to have a Russia and it got a
bad reputation for never being flown. The club got rid of it before I
joined. People said it was good to get rid of it, but with a little
bit of probing I found out that people LOVED it in the air - they just
HATED dragging it awkwardly out of the trailer. This is another place
where my Russia has spoiled me - its a custom-built trailer where the
wings are on sliding tracks, and the front and rear doors capture the
wing roots & tips to keep the whole thing secured for trailering.

LS drivers: What do you think about the fact that the airbrake and
flap handles share space? Johnson's review dinged both the 3 and the
3a for this. How much does it annoy you? Are you ever concerned that
you'll have to put the flaps down at high speed (contrary to the POH)
in order to get the spoilers out?

Thanks a bunch, take care,

--Noel

On Jan 7, 1:51*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks for the LS info, Larry!

Ray -

Great, but how do I find out how "nice" the trailer is without flying
around the country and looking at each one of them? :-P *Everyone says
they have a "good" trailer - but the definition of "good" seems to
vary a lot based on who's selling and who's buying! heheheh...

I totally agree, though. *Our club used to have a Russia and it got a
bad reputation for never being flown. *The club got rid of it before I
joined. *People said it was good to get rid of it, but with a little
bit of probing I found out that people LOVED it in the air - they just
HATED dragging it awkwardly out of the trailer. *This is another place
where my Russia has spoiled me - its a custom-built trailer where the
wings are on sliding tracks, and the front and rear doors capture the
wing roots & tips to keep the whole thing secured for trailering.

LS drivers: *What do you think about the fact that the airbrake and
flap handles share space? *Johnson's review dinged both the 3 and the
3a for this. *How much does it annoy you? *Are you ever concerned that
you'll have to put the flaps down at high speed (contrary to the POH)
in order to get the spoilers out?

Thanks a bunch, take care,

--Noel

Noel,
I've been flying a LS 3a for a year and so far the flap/spoiler
operation has not been an issue. I have yet to be in a position to
where I felt the need to depoly the spoilers at high speeds.

I can self rig the ship in about 30 to 40 minutes. I use pins to
safety the airleron connections and that does take the most time. My
hands get a little sweatty here in the Arizona sun.

MIke

Noel:

For starters, you can tell a good trailer if it says Cobra, Komet,
Eberle or Pfeiffer on it.

There are some dogs within these makes but it is a good starting
point. As has been pointed out, if the trailer sucks (you are
exhausted +/- bleeding +/- damage to glider after rig or derig), it
really takes the joy out of flying and you begin to weight the hassle:
fun ratio every time you think about flying.

On Jan 7, 8:03*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
snip
Since I also help friends rig an Apis or two, then watch G102s and
PIKs and an Open Cirrus struggle to get hooked up, I'm a bit gunshy
about heavy and non-automatic-hookup aircraft. *Perhaps unnecessarily
so?
SNIP

It's taken a few goes to get the hang of making the connections in my
glider, but it really doesn't take long though I do get someone else
to check it after I've taken it to the launch point. It has hoteliers
with sleeves so the trick is to be able to do three things at once
with one's hand. I guess it helps I've got a smaller hand than the
average guy, plus the hatch has a camming device to hold it on so no
need to tape it for that purpose.

However, the elevator is self-connecting. I was told that there have
been a lot of accidents with mis-connected elevators, including one
where the owner rigged correctly and went away. Someone else took the
elevator off for some reason and put it back unconnected. The owner
winch launched, realised there was a problem and at the top of the
launch bailed out, thankfully successfully. I've also been told that
the person that fiddled with it has since gone on to become an aircaft
accident inspector!

Noel,

All the suggestions about Mosquito, Libelle 301, Mini Nimbus, LS3,
Zuni, Vega, and the Standard Classers seem quite thorough, but I'll go
ahead and add my advice:

Get the one that has the best trailer.

You might be able to rig that Zuni in only 8 minutes, but the
trailer's got to be set up to allow it.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, NC, USA

The top names that spring to mind a *Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, LS-3.
(And yes I've read the Moffat article, Johnson Reports, and done a
crap-load of research online about these planes)


I notice you havn't got the ASW 20 on your list? The combination of
performance, quality and general ease of use would put this aircraft
near the top of my list within the budget you are considering. Just
wish my LAK was as easy to rig and de-rig as an ASW 20 - even without
automatic control linkages.

Clinton
LAK 12

On Jan 8, 3:02 am, Clint wrote:
I notice you havn't got the ASW 20 on your list? The combination of

ASW-20's still seem to go for a decent chunk of change. Yes it had the
best performance for its day; but people seem to think that its still
worth a fair amount of money ($30k - $40k) despite its age, manual
hookups, etc.

If it were within my budget (i.e. say $28k) then I'd strongly consider
an ASW-20; but I haven't seen any going for that low of an amount.

--Noel

Not a bird of the same flock, but how about a Pilatus B4 ? Goes for
around 16K +/- Metal ship, lots of fun, and you can leave it tied
out.
Doug