C172S Landing accident

"Peter R." wrote:

Huh? Where was that either directly written or indirectly implied in the
above quoted text?

"After engine is stopped with prop feathered"

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Big John wrote:

Thread started, taking about the 'JC' (Jesus Christ) maneuver in a SE.

Thought it started talking about a student pranging a plane by letting
it porpoise (that what you mean by JC maneuver?

Judah then injected ME training into the thread and shutting a engine
down. I responded to her ME comment.

Here is the entirety of Judah's post to which you were responding.
I see absolutely nothing whatsoever in it about ME training nor
shutting the engine down specifically in a ME plane. But feel free
to direct it to my attention if you feel I missed it. Judah wrote:
When training for spins, do you actually put the plane into one? When
training for engine out, do you actually turn off the mags? When
training for partial panel, do you actually turn off the master?
When training for failed pitot-static do you actually block the
pitot tube and/or static ports?
I'd hate to think how you train your students for an engine or wing
fire!
There's plenty of flight training that goes on without actual
demonstration. You can call it whatever you want...

Nope, don't see a thing in there about ME training. Maybe in another
"branch" of the thread, but if so, don't assume that's what's being
discussed in this branch. If you feel I missed it, point it out...
whole post available on http://www.groups.google.com

If you intended your comment to apply only to ME training, makes
much more sense. But nothing in Judah's post, nor your post,
indicated this restriction that I could find.

Best,
Sydney

G.R.

Yes.

Some of the SE turbine birds can go 'beta' for an air brake and also
into reverse pitch and back up.

When shut down they go to the feathered mode (as I'm sure you have
seen in pictures and on the ramp).

The T-6A (Texan II) TRAINER can probably do all as outlined above.
It's engine, the PT-6A feathers the prop on shut down.

Where do we go from here? G


Big John


On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:09:33 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:

Big John wrote:

When training for engine out, do you actually turn off the mags?

After engine is stopped with prop feathered, Yes, it's in the check
list.

*blink* in a SE trainer? *blink*

Are there *any* single-engine trainers that have the ability to feather
the prop?

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Sydney

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:06:29 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote:

Big John wrote:

Thread started, taking about the 'JC' (Jesus Christ) maneuver in a SE.

Thought it started talking about a student pranging a plane by letting
it porpoise (that what you mean by JC maneuver?
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"JC", yes, it's a common expression in the Air Force (probably Navy
and Marines also) when the pilot gets 180 degrees behind the
oscillations of an aircraft and excursions get bigger and bigger until
something comes unglued (breaks nose wheel off, etc).
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Judah then injected ME training into the thread and shutting a engine
down. I responded to her ME comment.

Here is the entirety of Judah's post to which you were responding.
I see absolutely nothing whatsoever in it about ME training nor
shutting the engine down specifically in a ME plane. But feel free
to direct it to my attention if you feel I missed it. Judah wrote:
When training for spins, do you actually put the plane into one?

WHEN TRAINING FOR ENGINE OUT, DO YOU ACTUALLY TURN OF THE MAGS?

When training for partial panel, do you actually turn off the master?
When training for failed pitot-static do you actually block the
pitot tube and/or static ports?
I'd hate to think how you train your students for an engine or wing
fire!
There's plenty of flight training that goes on without actual
demonstration. You can call it whatever you want...

Feel free to borrow my glasses. I put the sentence in all caps to help
you read. Just what training for "engine out" do YOU do in a SE
aircraft?


Nope, don't see a thing in there about ME training. Maybe in another
"branch" of the thread, but if so, don't assume that's what's being
discussed in this branch. If you feel I missed it, point it out...
whole post available on http://www.groups.google.com

If you intended your comment to apply only to ME training, makes
much more sense. But nothing in Judah's post, nor your post,
indicated this restriction that I could find.

Best,
Sydney

Bottom line is that training should be as close to what happens during
flight as possible and within safe limits. What are safe limits might
be argued but some of us know that spins, stalls, engine out , etc.
practice (training) all makes better, safer pilots during his/her
flying career.

Big John

Never heard of a Multi-Engine student? Or a student getting his Complex
endorsement?

It's even possible for a student working on his PPL to fly a plane with a
constant speed prop. At the flight school where I got my PPL, they had a
couple of Socata Tampicos and a Tobago. If the tampicos were tied up,
students could rent the tobago for training, and the instructor would work
the prop control. I did that several times in my training.

Sometimes students actually buy planes before they get their PPLs and fly
constant speed props during training because that's what they bought. It's
not unheard of...

Otherwise, you are correct. I cannot think of any fixed pitch trainer that
would offer feathering of the prop. Except perhaps unless that prop was
underneath the plane in a nose-down position after porpoising down the
runway a while.

(journeyman) wrote in
u.com:


Sorry, I went a little overboard. Big John was talking about
feathering an engine. AFAIK, only multi-engine aircraft have
feathering props.

Sydney was pointing that you don't shut down the single engine on a
single-engine trainer. Which is what this discussion started with.

You suggested the shutting off the mags was meant to be part of the
shutdown checklist "after the prop is feathered".

The kinds of single-engine trainers a solo student is likely to be
flying only has fixed pitch. You wouldn't feather it even on shutdown.


Morris (going into Emily Latella mode)

Big John wrote in
:

Sydney

WHEN TRAINING FOR ENGINE OUT, DO YOU ACTUALLY TURN OF THE MAGS?

When training for partial panel, do you actually turn off the
master? When training for failed pitot-static do you actually block
the pitot tube and/or static ports?
I'd hate to think how you train your students for an engine or wing
fire! There's plenty of flight training that goes on without actual
demonstration. You can call it whatever you want...

Feel free to borrow my glasses. I put the sentence in all caps to help
you read. Just what training for "engine out" do YOU do in a SE
aircraft?


I'm sorry, what part of Engine Out Training implies ME? Do single engines
not fail in flight? Do SE students not train to manage an engine failure in
a single? Do you mean to imply that your PPL students are never trained in
engine out procedures? Do they even know what Best Glide Speed is then?

Absolutely scary.


Bottom line is that training should be as close to what happens during
flight as possible and within safe limits. What are safe limits might
be argued but some of us know that spins, stalls, engine out , etc.
practice (training) all makes better, safer pilots during his/her
flying career.

THAT I agree with. But the OP, Greg Estes, seemed to disagree. He
disqualified anything that was not actually demonstrated from being
considered training.


BTW: Judah is a "he". The female version of me would be named "Judy".

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:13:05 GMT, Judah wrote:

It's even possible for a student working on his PPL to fly a plane with a
constant speed prop. At the flight school where I got my PPL, they had a
couple of Socata Tampicos and a Tobago. If the tampicos were tied up,
students could rent the tobago for training, and the instructor would work
the prop control. I did that several times in my training.

I've flown a Tobago. I *know* it doesn't have a feathering prop.
Controllable prop doesn't mean feathering prop.

I know, I know, I introduced fixed pitch into the discussion, but, as I
said, that was going overboard.

Sure, as Big John points out, when training for the military, they put
you into single-engine turboprop "trainers" which have feathering props,
but for most of the rest of us, our initial training is in single-engine
pistons. Most likely fixed pitch, but even the ones with constant-speed
props don't feather.


Morris (going into Emily Latella mode)

"Nevermind"


Morris

Big John wrote:

The T-6A (Texan II) TRAINER can probably do all as outlined above.
It's engine, the PT-6A feathers the prop on shut down.

Where do we go from here? G

We say "gosh, them military student pilots sure got to have more
fun", we hope a couple people are educated that constant speed
prop (in a SE piston) does not necessarily imply feathering,
and that's that.

Cheers,
Sydney

Judah

My appoligies on name. We are getting so many 'others' in the business
that some of the unusual names can be ????? G

This thread has been simular to what in the 'old' days was considered
'hanger flying". Lots of ideas and give and take of exerience,
druthers, etc. G

Big John

----clip----


BTW: Judah is a "he". The female version of me would be named "Judy".

Sydney.

I never shut down a SE (conventual engine) when training anyone
(Military or GA). Never heard of any Instructor who did? To practice a
engine out forced landing I set the power to 'zero thrust' and bird
flew very similar to what it would if engine was out.

To have a student go through recovery of a dead engine I agree all you
can do is talk and touch the procedure (No actual engine shut down)
GA.

NASA uses a somewhat similar procedure in their Shuttle trainer. They
set up drag and power to make the trainer fly like the Shuttle in
landing pattern.

I did shut down the engine (Jet) on the T-33 to give students the
actual air start experience.

Would get 15K or so over either one of the aux fields or 'home plate'
and after doing some things with idle throttle (power off stalls,
etc.) I'd very gently pull the throttle back to 'Idle Cut Off' from
the rear cockpit. It would take the student a minute or so to say "the
engine isn't running". Surprise, Surprise G

I'd then have them go through the air start procedure saying each step
out loud to me as they did it. Engine always started. If it hadn't, I
was proficient enough in the bird to make a dead stick landing on
field with no problem.

Doing this, my students had no fear of a flame out when they went out
into the wide cold world (Operational Squadrons).

Lots of good discussion on thread. Just need a beer (and spittoon) to
make it like old time 'Hanger Flying' G

Big John



On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:31:07 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote:

----clip----


Bottom line is that training should be as close to what happens during
flight as possible and within safe limits. What are safe limits might
be argued but some of us know that spins, stalls, engine out , etc.
practice (training) all makes better, safer pilots during his/her
flying career.

Concur. But in a SE plane, I think the student is best taught to
*touch* the fuel valve and mags while reciting the checklist, rather
than actually shutting them off during training. That's where my
"safe limits" lie, in any case.
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I can live with both but feel that my way has more merit G

BJ
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Cheers,
Sydney