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  #1  
Old July 10th 07, 04:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Kobra[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default flaps

Aviators,

My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming out
of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.

I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.

On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on landing
and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely or
unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I notice
that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change pitch or
that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I just didn't
catch the fact that no flaps came out.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used
a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without
the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with my
primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.

Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway off
19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was so
high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted to
come in as flat as possible.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

Kobra


  #2  
Old July 10th 07, 06:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Aluckyguess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default flaps

I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time.
"Kobra" wrote in message
. ..
Aviators,

My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.

I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.

On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.

Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

Kobra



  #3  
Old July 10th 07, 06:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default flaps

On Jul 9, 10:16 pm, "Aluckyguess" wrote:
I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time."Kobra" wrote in message

. ..



Aviators,


My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.


The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.


I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.


On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.


Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.


I took off and started to ponder the situation:


No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.


Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.


I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.


Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?


I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.


Kobra- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


W/o flaps you will land in a more nose high attitude, which tends to
make for smoother landings, in my experience.
'
-Robert, CFII

  #4  
Old July 15th 07, 11:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roger (K8RI)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 727
Default flaps

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:43:01 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jul 9, 10:16 pm, "Aluckyguess" wrote:
I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time."Kobra" wrote in message

. ..



Aviators,


My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.


The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.


I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.


On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.


Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.


I took off and started to ponder the situation:


No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.


Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.


I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.


That's why they teach slips.


Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?


I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.


Kobra- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


W/o flaps you will land in a more nose high attitude, which tends to
make for smoother landings, in my experience.


A Bo landed properly (landed, not flown on) with no flaps is so nose
high the only view you have of the airport is out the side windows.
In the past I'd practice them every few weeks. A no flap landing is
much faster than a proper landing and can easily use twice as much
runway as well. It also adds new meaning to the word, "float".

We had a DE here on the field who used to say, "anyone can fly one on
but it takes a pilot to land one".

'
-Robert, CFII

  #5  
Old July 10th 07, 07:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Ben Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default flaps

On 2007-07-10, Kobra wrote:

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/
  #6  
Old July 10th 07, 12:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Dan Luke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 713
Default flaps


"Ben Jackson" wrote:


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!


LOL! Same here.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM


  #7  
Old July 10th 07, 02:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
texasflyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default flaps

On Jul 10, 6:22 am, "Dan Luke" wrote:
"Ben Jackson" wrote:

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!


LOL! Same here.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM


My brain would've been screaming: GO AROUND! GO AROUND!

  #8  
Old July 10th 07, 11:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
kontiki
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default flaps

Get a real A&P to check out the flap situation. If its
not the breaker it could be the flap motor (one of the
reasons I do like manual flaps).

As far as why you didn't notice that your flaps were
not working... well... that is disturbing. I notice
*every* little sound, motion, vibration or whatever in
my airplane.

I hardly ever land with full flaps unless its a short
field.
  #9  
Old July 10th 07, 05:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default flaps

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:43:10 +0000, kontiki wrote:

I hardly ever land with full flaps unless its a short field.


Why? Unless I've some reason to do otherwise, I'll make every landing as
slow and short (and precisely where I want to touch down) as possible.
It's all good practice, and the slow part is being gentle on the airplane.

I'll often only drop the full flaps on very short final, as I dislike
dragging it in. But they're all the way down when I'm landing.

Of course, now that I think on it, I've only 30 degrees of flaps.

- Andrew

  #10  
Old July 11th 07, 05:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Carter[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 403
Default flaps

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:43:10 +0000, kontiki wrote:

I hardly ever land with full flaps unless its a short field.


Why? Unless I've some reason to do otherwise, I'll make every landing as
slow and short (and precisely where I want to touch down) as possible.
It's all good practice, and the slow part is being gentle on the airplane.

I'll often only drop the full flaps on very short final, as I dislike
dragging it in. But they're all the way down when I'm landing.

Of course, now that I think on it, I've only 30 degrees of flaps.

- Andrew


What I don't understand is how the original poster didn't notice there was
no pitch change or re-trim required following application of the missing
flaps. It is almost 2nd nature to reach for the trim wheel right after
selecting flaps in a Cessna so why didn't the poster notice that he didn't
need to retrim?


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas


 




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