Blue Ridge Crash

A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. The signal the
glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
spoilers/breaks twice.
I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
closed on TO.
--
Roberto Waltman

This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like
to see this procedure looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with
good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the
towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I
glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. It is easy to do
and your focus distance does not change much.

Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds
like the rope or weak link broke. I don't think the rope should come
apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly
progressing.

I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers
unlocked. I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and
remarked about all the sink we were flying through!
We all make mistakes.
If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. if
the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn
the glider loose. But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a
P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High
Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro.
The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like
hell after only a few tows.
Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out
and the Dacron Rope. Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because
they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is
really bad news. Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low.
It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run
the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use
them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that?
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

On Apr 15, 3:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. So in that case, should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Nick makes an excellent point. Using substandard rope and weak links
invites disaster.

On the topic of spoilers open on the takeoff roll, isn't the problem
having them in the wrong configuration for a particular glider?

How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator? Run a Bowden
cable from the spoiler pushrod in the fuselage to a red button on top
of the glare shield directly in the pilots line of sight. With the
spoilers closed and locked, the button would be flush with the glare
shield. Unlocked, it would protrude. As the spoilers open it would
protrude further providing a % open indication.

Yes, if pilots would just turn their head, the spoilers themselves
make a great 'indicator' but it's clear from the accident record they
don't do that.


On Apr 14, 9:59*pm, Nick Kennedy wrote:
A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. *The signal the
glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
spoilers/breaks twice.
I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
closed on TO.
--
Roberto Waltman

This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like
to see this procedure *looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with
good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the
towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I
glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. *It is easy to do
and your focus distance does not change much.

Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds
like the rope or weak link broke. *I don't think the rope should come
apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly
progressing.

I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers
unlocked. *I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and
remarked about all the sink we were flying through!
We all make mistakes.
*If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. *if
the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn
the glider loose. *But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a
P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High
Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro.
The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like
hell after only a few tows.
*Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out
and the Dacron Rope. *Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because
they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is
really bad news. *Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low.
It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run
the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use
them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that?
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

At 09:33 15 April 2011, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the
release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF


I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I
normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one
place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident
happens too quickly to be able to grab for it, and it has never resulted
in an inadvertant release. When the accident happens it is always a badly
damaged glider, often injuries, sometimes worse.
There may be a little more time on aerotow, but personally I still hold
the release, letting go to move flaps if fitted, when I'm happy with
lateral control.
Dave

On 4/15/2011 2:33 AM, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

I think it's idiotic to be towing in an area where dropping a wing will
result in a ground loop, and that resulting groundloop will "smash your
glider to bits". But let's say you've already made those mistakes, and
consider scenario #3:

You start the launch with your hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You DON'T drop a wing because the open spoilers give you much
better control, you DON'T pull off, you DON'T groundloop, and you DON'T
smash your glider to bits. In fact, the launch proceeds smoothly, no
drama, nobody in danger or inconvenienced.

I used open spoilers for the last few years I owned my ASW 20, and I
never dropped a wing once I started doing that; before then, I did drop
a wing ocasionally. I NEVER ground looped, however, because the tip skid
just slid along the pavement.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Apr 15, 9:31*am, bildan wrote:

How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator?

I had unlocked airbrakes suck open once at lift-off when I was new to
my ASW-19b. Not an experience I wished to repeat.

I painted red the forward part of the airbrake control rod that is
concealed in the side wall when the brakes are locked but exposed when
the brakes are closed but no locked. It made an effective warning
flag and required no modification to a certificated flight control
system.

Then I learned the advantages of using brakes during takeoff roll and
didn't need the warning any more. On my 28 I enabled the 302 airbrake
warning.

Andy

On 4/15/2011 1:18 PM, David Salmon wrote:

I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I
normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one
place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident
happens too quickly to be able to grab for it,


I'm a winch newbie (about 35) but have about 2000 aero tows. One of our
(US) club instructors also teaches at Cambridge (UK) and what David says
is what he taught all of us. For a winch launch, the hand is ON the
release because when things go wrong, they go wrong quickly - and you
never pick up a dropping wing on the ground roll, for example - you
release. For aero tows, we keep our hand NEAR the release but not on it.

Tony V.

On Apr 16, 2:03*am, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

Why would the answer be any different than what happens if the rope
breaks or the towplane engine quits?