FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article

Concerening arrival and flight through Class C airspace...

91.130(c)(1) Each person must establish two-way radio communications
with the ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services prior to
entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.

Note the use of "THE" in reference to the ATC facility to which one has
to talk. Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace? Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the
time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?

On 8 Feb 2006 14:05:06 -0800, "Mike Granby" wrote in
om::

Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace?

The ATC facility in question would be that facility providing Approach
Control services.

Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the
time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?

If the ARTTC is not providing Approach Control services to the airport
is probably not coordinating arrivals with the tower. (Of course,
this all presumes VFR operation.)

You're only busted if the controller files a Pilot Deviation form
against you.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On 8 Feb 2006 14:05:06 -0800, "Mike Granby" wrote in
. com::

Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace?

The ATC facility in question would be that facility providing Approach
Control services.

I had a bizarre experience a while ago along these lines. Had VFR
flight following from Bradley Approach into Hartford/Brainard.

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

Every time I've ever read or discussed this, the answer was that I had
to establish the communications with the Class C ATC. If it was not
established, do not enter.

With an instructor, I was leaving SSF (Stinson, Class D ) and going
back to SAT (San Antonio Class C) , and as was your situation we could
not get 2-way established due to traffic. The instructor has us do a
180 so as not to intrude on the Class C improperly.

That pretty much established the rules to me; I believe you could be
busted.

On 8 Feb 2006 18:32:15 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote in
::

Had VFR flight following from Bradley Approach into Hartford/Brainard.

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

I recall reading in FAA Order 7110.65, that it is the responsibility
of the air traffic controller providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service
to VFR aircraft to coordinate transition through Class B, C, D and E
surface area airspace, but I can't find it now:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/


Perhaps I was thinking of this:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-16
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would
require flight within a surface area for which the tower has
responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to
an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through
each area when in contact with a radar facility.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.

I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me. I suppose I could have
done a 180, but I had no reason to believe anything was strange until
it was too late. I fly out of HPN, and I'm used to NY Approach
sometimes holding on to me until I'm inside HPN's CDAS; I didn't see
any reason why this should be any different.

I've heard this happen a number of times "nextdoor" to you at Republic. Each
time the pilot was very confused as to why they were being yelled at by the
tower. It seems to me an area that could use some improvement by the FAA. I
believe the proper phrase the Approach controller should use when not
handing off to a Class D tower is, "Radar service terminated, squawk VFR,
frequency change approved" as opposed to a straight "Contact Republic Tower
on 118.8." If Approach used the latter and the tower still had an issue, I
would think you have a valid point. Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a
Class D tower from flight following? I can't recall ever getting one.

Marco



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone.

We had this EXACT thing happen to us, flying into Class D Janesville (KJVL),
WI while utilizing Rockford Approach (KRFD) for VFR flight following.

I wrote about the incident here, and the conversation went on for weeks --
so don't expect a consensus view of this type of affair. It's the only time
Mary and I have felt the need to file a NASA report.

Now, when we fly into KJVL, we cut Rockford Approach off 15 miles out. When
coming into Class D (for DUMB) airspace, approach control has proven
themselves to be far more trouble than they're worth.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:
Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a Class D tower from flight following?

They certainly do at HPN. You (pretty much) can't get into HPN (Class D)
without talking to NY Approach first and getting a squawk. Tower knows
you're coming before you even call them. If you call up HPN Tower cold,
they (usually) tell you to remain clear of the CDAS and contact NY Approach
for sequencing.

But, then again, HPN seems to operate in their own little universe of
procedures, unlike any other Class D I've ever been to.

I was approaching Rockford frome the north and apparently nicked the
very edge of Janeville Class D while talking to Rockford Approach the
whole time and Rockford jumped all over me about it. There is something
weird going on with those two.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

In article .com,
says...

The instructor has us do a
180 so as not to intrude on the Class C improperly.


I've done that too - I would certainly not enter a Class C under the
pretext that I was talking to Center. However I've never had the
unpleasant surprise of not getting handed off in time. If I did, I would
tell Center something like "remaining clear of class charlie until
established with approach" or something like that, while drawing circles
in the sky.

GF