A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

A few newbie questions about the sport



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old September 20th 18, 10:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 482
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 3:45:08 PM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
At 19:09 20 September 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T

wrote:
At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T

wrote:

Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
simpl=3D
e
=3D20
question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?

Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent

magazine; a=20
few
y=3D
ears ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed

in 5
fli=3D
ghts by using Condor to prepare.=3D20

I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor

(w/cockpit=20
and
big=3D
screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.

Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in

the
pro=3D
cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and
multipl=3D
e big screens.

Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an

Aircrew
Tra=3D
ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's
effec=3D
tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is
not
=3D
the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to

the
learnin=3D
g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.

Kirk
(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
=20
=20
You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked

a=20
simple question of someone who uses this method as a business ,

what=20
is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
difficult=20
question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public forum -

=20
some kind of big secret or something?


If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it without

an
=
accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty

antidotal
"=
evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was

required
b=
y my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation training in

a
=
complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small operation,
cater=
ing to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind study
la=
rge enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor simulation
re=
duces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power
pilot=
s transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency=E2=80=A6.. =20

Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link trainer

in
th=
e big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for

calling
yo=
u out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group that

are
he=
lpful to one another and many members are the most respected

members of
our=
sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have

taken
S=
cott up on his offer to communication directly.



Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
transantlantic telephone calls - there was no accusatory tone - asked a
simple question that's all - dont see why that can't be answered. Think
you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into things
that aren't there . The guy stated this was his business and made some
claims in a public forum - I merely asked if he had any evidence for that
and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like' in
my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?

If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends are
thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one of
the
poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that the a

person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are low
in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in training
would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
syllabus.


Warning - thread drift. You might consider something like the LAK-16M primary trainer. There is a short youtube video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4oZ8bX9Oo ; aimed at younger people, but inexpensive, and looks like a lot of cheap fun.
Ads
  #32  
Old September 20th 18, 11:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

At 21:39 20 September 2018, Dan Daly wrote:
On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 3:45:08 PM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
At 19:09 20 September 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T

wrote:
At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T

wrote:

Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a

fairly
simpl=3D
e
=3D20
question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?

Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent

magazine; a=20
few
y=3D
ears ago there was an article about a student who basically

soloed
in 5
fli=3D
ghts by using Condor to prepare.=3D20

I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor

(w/cockpit=20
and
big=3D
screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.

Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is

in
the
pro=3D
cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls

and
multipl=3D
e big screens.

Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an

Aircrew
Tra=3D
ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and

it's
effec=3D
tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a

glider
is
not
=3D
the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help

to
the
learnin=3D
g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.

Kirk
(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
=20
=20
You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked

a=20
simple question of someone who uses this method as a business

,
what=20
is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
difficult=20
question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public

forum -
=20
some kind of big secret or something?

If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it

without
an
=
accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty

antidotal
"=
evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was

required
b=
y my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation

training in

a
=
complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small

operation,
cater=
ing to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind

study
la=
rge enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor

simulation
re=
duces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power
pilot=
s transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency=E2=80=A6..

=20

Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link

trainer
in
th=
e big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for

calling
yo=
u out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group

that
are
he=
lpful to one another and many members are the most respected

members of
our=
sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have

taken
S=
cott up on his offer to communication directly.



Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
transantlantic telephone calls - there was no accusatory tone - asked

a
simple question that's all - dont see why that can't be answered.

Think
you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into

things
that aren't there . The guy stated this was his business and made

some
claims in a public forum - I merely asked if he had any evidence for

that

and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like'

in
my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?

If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends

are

thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one

of
the
poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that

the
a

person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are

low
in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in

training
would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
syllabus.


Warning - thread drift. You might consider something like the LAK-

16M
primary trainer. There is a short youtube video at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4oZ8bX9Oo ; aimed at younger

people, but
inexpensive, and looks like a lot of cheap fun.


Thanks for the suggestion we are thinking used Ka2/7, Ka8, K6CR, Pirat,
Bocian, and the like. There are still good ones about at low cost,
probably offer a better price/performance/experience ratio - and there
are quite a few disused 5-8000ft runways about in Bulgaria - car tows or
simple reverse pulley would be the way to go. Maybe a bungy for
mountain expeditions!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClL...O4uQXyA/videos
gives you an idea of some of the conditions and scenery encountered.

  #33  
Old September 21st 18, 02:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 98
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

“I'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning”

Got it in one, Bob
  #34  
Old September 21st 18, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

At 13:03 21 September 2018, wrote:
=E2=80=9CI'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!=20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning=E2=80=9D

Got it in one, Bob

Another ****

  #35  
Old September 21st 18, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Manley[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

Paul T

My replies are embedded in your message below.



Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
transantlantic telephone calls


I had no idea you were international. I assumed you were within the U.S. and simply offered the usual ways of communicating. Now that I know you are international, and assuming you are still interested in my opinions on the subject, I would suggest you download and install Skype. It costs nothing to install and nothing to use. My Skype ID is "scooter.manley". You would need to send me a contact request that I would accept, allowing us to communicate via Skype.

- there was no accusatory tone - asked a
simple question that's all


Over my ten plus years of advocating for the use of flight simulation to improve glider flight training using computer-based software (Condor), the idea has been met with various levels of passive resistance. My experience has been that when someone asks for "evidence", they are more likely looking to refute my claims than looking for information. So forgive me for being gun-shy.

dont see why that can't be answered. Think
you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into things
that aren't there .


Guilty.

My reluctance to respond on a public forum is based on your experience asking a question on a public forum.

The guy stated this was his business


Pretty sure I didn't state that.

and made some
claims in a public forum -


While it might be "assumed" by my post that the flight training services I provide are my business, they are not. I do not solicit nor have I ever accepted offers of payment for the services I provide. The training resources I have developed and make available on my website (gliderCFI.com) are free for the taking. I do not even ask for attribution. I do what I do for the good of the sport. I ask only to be taken seriously.

I merely asked if he had any evidence for that


Nothing that could be considered irrefutable, only my perception of my experience with the 70 or so folks I have trained over the last 10-12 years. Many of those folks are happy to back up my claims with their testimony.

and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like' in
my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?


The answer is not as simple as you would imagine, but I'll give it a shot.

Time savings:
In one sense, simulation-based trainees will spend considerably more time (often orders of magnitude more) performing and perfecting their flight skills than do aircaft-based trainees. For example, it is possible in simulation to perform 20-30 crosswind landings in the span of one hour. Compare that to the time needed to acquire that same level of experience in an actual aircraft. While the brains of aircraft-based trainees may have 10-30 hours of flight experience upon earning their rating, the brains of simulation-based trainees will have hundreds of hours of experience.

In simulation, there is no time spent waiting around for your chance to fly..

If the training is done at-a-distance (over the internet) there is no travel time to/from the airport.

Simulation-based training is not limited to the available days/hours of operation of a club or commercial operation. It can be done any time of the day, any day of the week, any month of the year, and with student and instructor anywhere in the world.

I could go on, but this post is already running long, and long posts are annoying.

Cost savings:
Computer-based flight training costs next to nothing and pales in comparison to the costs of conducting aircraft-based flight training. If you are looking to provide low-cost flight training, as you describe below, you can't beat simulation.

===

For more of my thoughts on the use of flight simulation to improve glider flight training (and so you don't even have to install Skype and talk to me), I would encourage you to read the 26 articles I wrote for Soaring Magazine over the span of 4.5 years. They are available on my website under the "Condor/Condor Corner" drop-down menu.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.



If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends are
thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one of
the
poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that the a

person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are low
in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in training
would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
syllabus.


  #36  
Old September 21st 18, 05:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default A few newbie questions about the sport

At 16:23 21 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:
Paul T

My replies are embedded in your message below.

=20
=20
Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to

make=20
transantlantic telephone calls


I had no idea you were international. I assumed you were within the

U.S.
a=
nd simply offered the usual ways of communicating. Now that I know

you
are=
international, and assuming you are still interested in my opinions on
the=
subject, I would suggest you download and install Skype. It costs
nothing=
to install and nothing to use. My Skype ID is "scooter.manley". You
woul=
d need to send me a contact request that I would accept, allowing us

to
com=
municate via Skype.

- there was no accusatory tone - asked a=20
simple question that's all=20


Over my ten plus years of advocating for the use of flight simulation to
im=
prove glider flight training using computer-based software (Condor),

the
id=
ea has been met with various levels of passive resistance. My

experience
=
has been that when someone asks for "evidence", they are more likely
lookin=
g to refute my claims than looking for information. So forgive me for
bein=
g gun-shy.

dont see why that can't be answered. Think=20
you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into

things=20
that aren't there .


Guilty. =20

My reluctance to respond on a public forum is based on your

experience
aski=
ng a question on a public forum. =20

The guy stated this was his business


Pretty sure I didn't state that.

and made some=20
claims in a public forum -


While it might be "assumed" by my post that the flight training

services I
=
provide are my business, they are not. I do not solicit nor have I ever
ac=
cepted offers of payment for the services I provide. The training
resource=
s I have developed and make available on my website (gliderCFI.com)

are
fre=
e for the taking. I do not even ask for attribution. I do what I do for
t=
he good of the sport. I ask only to be taken seriously. =20

I merely asked if he had any evidence for that


Nothing that could be considered irrefutable, only my perception of my
expe=
rience with the 70 or so folks I have trained over the last 10-12 years.
M=
any of those folks are happy to back up my claims with their

testimony.=20
=20
and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like'

in=20
my experience for the 50 students that have used this method -

the=20
average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have=20
answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?


The answer is not as simple as you would imagine, but I'll give it a

shot.

Time savings:
In one sense, simulation-based trainees will spend considerably more

time
(=
often orders of magnitude more) performing and perfecting their flight
skil=
ls than do aircaft-based trainees. For example, it is possible in
simulati=
on to perform 20-30 crosswind landings in the span of one hour.

Compare
th=
at to the time needed to acquire that same level of experience in an
actual=
aircraft. While the brains of aircraft-based trainees may have 10-30
hour=
s of flight experience upon earning their rating, the brains of
simulation-=
based trainees will have hundreds of hours of experience.

In simulation, there is no time spent waiting around for your chance to
fly=
..

If the training is done at-a-distance (over the internet) there is no
trave=
l time to/from the airport.

Simulation-based training is not limited to the available days/hours of
ope=
ration of a club or commercial operation. It can be done any time of

the
d=
ay, any day of the week, any month of the year, and with student and
instru=
ctor anywhere in the world.

I could go on, but this post is already running long, and long posts are
an=
noying.

Cost savings:
Computer-based flight training costs next to nothing and pales in
compariso=
n to the costs of conducting aircraft-based flight training. If you are
lo=
oking to provide low-cost flight training, as you describe below, you
can't=
beat simulation.

=3D=3D=3D

For more of my thoughts on the use of flight simulation to improve

glider
f=
light training (and so you don't even have to install Skype and talk to
me)=
, I would encourage you to read the 26 articles I wrote for Soaring
Magazin=
e over the span of 4.5 years. They are available on my website under

the
"=
Condor/Condor Corner" drop-down menu.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration. =20


=20
If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends

are=
=20
thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one

of
the=20
poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that

the
=
a
=20
person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are

low=
=20
in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in

training=20
would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the

training=20
syllabus.




Thank you Scott - apologies about the misunderstanding about being
your business and for maybe my phrasing of the original question - I
shall read the articles and be in touch on 'Skype'. I am genuinely
interested to know what time/cost savings this type of training can
make.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newbie holding questions JohnK Instrument Flight Rules 106 January 14th 06 09:44 AM
Questions from a newbie. Andrew Tubbiolo Home Built 9 September 14th 04 01:40 AM
Newbie with questions... Mike \(Remove X's to reply\) Piloting 10 February 14th 04 01:16 AM
a few more newbie's pre-purchase questions Ted Wagner Soaring 22 February 13th 04 10:50 AM
Basic Stupid Newbie Questions... John Penta Military Aviation 5 September 19th 03 05:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.