Are the Israelis using smaller Hellfire warheads?

"Ragnar" wrote in message ...
"Yeff" wrote in message
...
I've seen it suggested on some web pages that the Israelis are using
smaller Hellfire warheads for their anti-terror strikes than come
standard.
Is this true and, if so, does anyone have a good cite?


From what I understand, the Israelis have converted both the TOW and
Hellfire to use blast/frag warheads instead of the usual shaped charge ones.
Blast/frag is more efficient for attacking the target set they are going
after. I don't know about weight though.

I've heard the same from someone who was over there during the height
of the tit-for-tat missile strikes and Pal attacks a couple of years
ago (sure doesn't seem that long).

"Arie Kazachin" wrote in message
...
In message - "Kevin Brooks"
writes:
For some reason, people like Hitler or Arafat
tend to by lucky enough to be saved from a bomb by a heavy table or to
walk
away from a plane crash...

Well, in Arafat's case, the Israeli government has made a conscious decision
NOT to target him for years. He could have been easily whacked on a number
of occasions.

In message - "Kevin Brooks"
writes:



[snip]

Well,Hellfire uses a shaped charge warhead,so it makes a "jet' of
penetrating metal,tearing through the car's interior and the blast may
occur outside the car,and it would not affect the hubcaps/wheelcovers.

Think about what you just said. The fact that the standard Hellfire uses a
HEAT warhead does not really greatly affect the blast effect; it only means
that a portion of the blast has been used (as it expands outward) to invert
the liner and turn it into a stream of really hot metal and gas focused on a
small area. The explosive still exhibits a generally spherical blast pattern
overall. Set a fifteen pound demo shaped charge against the average
passenger vehicle and you'll see that it does not *need* the shaped charge
effect to do a pretty good number on the target; that much HE going off in
close contact to the car will tend to ruin everyone's day if they were
unfortunate enough to be inside it.

Brooks


There was at least one case when a terrorists leader remained alive
because he was sitting in a front seat while the missile hit the
back seat. So it seems the blast effect is far from spherical. Or maybe
he just got extreamly lucky. For some reason, people like Hitler or Arafat
tend to by lucky enough to be saved from a bomb by a heavy table or to walk
away from a plane crash...

Those damn ROE: not only the pilots have to hit a specific car at specific
moment, they also need to hit it at specific point...


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"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
Glenfiddich wrote in
:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:52:44 -0400, Yeff
wrote:

I've seen it suggested on some web pages that the Israelis are
using smaller Hellfire warheads for their anti-terror strikes than
come standard. Is this true and, if so, does anyone have a good
cite?

Highly likely - if it *was* a Hellfire.

Check the early pictures of the last airstrike - the blast didn't
even remove the car's hubcaps.
Ignore later pictures - reports say the car was vandalised by
souvenir seekers.


Well,Hellfire uses a shaped charge warhead,so it makes a "jet' of
penetrating metal,tearing through the car's interior and the blast
may occur outside the car,and it would not affect the
hubcaps/wheelcovers.

Think about what you just said. The fact that the standard Hellfire
uses a HEAT warhead does not really greatly affect the blast effect;
it only means that a portion of the blast has been used (as it expands
outward) to invert the liner and turn it into a stream of really hot
metal and gas focused on a small area. The explosive still exhibits a
generally spherical blast pattern overall. Set a fifteen pound demo
shaped charge against the average passenger vehicle and you'll see
that it does not *need* the shaped charge effect to do a pretty good
number on the target; that much HE going off in close contact to the
car will tend to ruin everyone's day if they were unfortunate enough
to be inside it.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net



I *did* think about what I wrote.
The blast is going to occur in a place where the roughly spherical blast
front is not likely to affect wheel covers or hubcaps.
The jet will not do much damage in itself,the majority of damage inside -
will- be caused by the blast.

My guess is you have never seen these kind of warheads go off in proximity
to a thin-skinned vehicle--they do tend to do a lot more than you seem to
think against that kind of target.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

"Arie Kazachin" wrote in message
...
In message - "Kevin Brooks"
writes:



[snip]

Well,Hellfire uses a shaped charge warhead,so it makes a "jet' of
penetrating metal,tearing through the car's interior and the blast may
occur outside the car,and it would not affect the hubcaps/wheelcovers.

Think about what you just said. The fact that the standard Hellfire uses
a
HEAT warhead does not really greatly affect the blast effect; it only
means
that a portion of the blast has been used (as it expands outward) to
invert
the liner and turn it into a stream of really hot metal and gas focused
on a
small area. The explosive still exhibits a generally spherical blast
pattern
overall. Set a fifteen pound demo shaped charge against the average
passenger vehicle and you'll see that it does not *need* the shaped
charge
effect to do a pretty good number on the target; that much HE going off
in
close contact to the car will tend to ruin everyone's day if they were
unfortunate enough to be inside it.

Brooks


There was at least one case when a terrorists leader remained alive
because he was sitting in a front seat while the missile hit the
back seat. So it seems the blast effect is far from spherical.

I'd think it more likely that he was rather lucky, or had the benefit of
some armor protection, or a combination of both. Then again, did the missile
actually strike the vehicle, or was it a near miss? Eight or ten pounds of
Comp B (or whatever they are using as a filler) going off in intimate
contact with the side of the average POV is going to be an experience that
only the lucky occupants survive.

Brooks

Or maybe
he just got extreamly lucky. For some reason, people like Hitler or Arafat
tend to by lucky enough to be saved from a bomb by a heavy table or to
walk
away from a plane crash...

Those damn ROE: not only the pilots have to hit a specific car at specific
moment, they also need to hit it at specific point...



************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM
trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
Glenfiddich wrote in
:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:52:44 -0400, Yeff
wrote:

I've seen it suggested on some web pages that the Israelis are
using smaller Hellfire warheads for their anti-terror strikes
than come standard. Is this true and, if so, does anyone have a
good cite?

Highly likely - if it *was* a Hellfire.

Check the early pictures of the last airstrike - the blast
didn't even remove the car's hubcaps.
Ignore later pictures - reports say the car was vandalised by
souvenir seekers.


Well,Hellfire uses a shaped charge warhead,so it makes a "jet' of
penetrating metal,tearing through the car's interior and the blast
may occur outside the car,and it would not affect the
hubcaps/wheelcovers.

Think about what you just said. The fact that the standard Hellfire
uses a HEAT warhead does not really greatly affect the blast
effect; it only means that a portion of the blast has been used (as
it expands outward) to invert the liner and turn it into a stream
of really hot metal and gas focused on a small area. The explosive
still exhibits a generally spherical blast pattern overall. Set a
fifteen pound demo shaped charge against the average passenger
vehicle and you'll see that it does not *need* the shaped charge
effect to do a pretty good number on the target; that much HE going
off in close contact to the car will tend to ruin everyone's day if
they were unfortunate enough to be inside it.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net



I *did* think about what I wrote.
The blast is going to occur in a place where the roughly spherical
blast front is not likely to affect wheel covers or hubcaps.
The jet will not do much damage in itself,the majority of damage
inside - will- be caused by the blast.

My guess is you have never seen these kind of warheads go off in
proximity to a thin-skinned vehicle--they do tend to do a lot more
than you seem to think against that kind of target.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net



Sure,the blast will blow in the car's glass,and frags shred the metalwork.

But the pressure wave would be directed such that wheel covers or hubcaps
would be pushed ON,not blown off.It may not even be directed towards the
hubcaps.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .
Glenfiddich wrote in
:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:52:44 -0400, Yeff
wrote:

I've seen it suggested on some web pages that the Israelis are
using smaller Hellfire warheads for their anti-terror strikes
than come standard. Is this true and, if so, does anyone have a
good cite?

Highly likely - if it *was* a Hellfire.

Check the early pictures of the last airstrike - the blast
didn't even remove the car's hubcaps.
Ignore later pictures - reports say the car was vandalised by
souvenir seekers.


Well,Hellfire uses a shaped charge warhead,so it makes a "jet' of
penetrating metal,tearing through the car's interior and the blast
may occur outside the car,and it would not affect the
hubcaps/wheelcovers.

Think about what you just said. The fact that the standard Hellfire
uses a HEAT warhead does not really greatly affect the blast
effect; it only means that a portion of the blast has been used (as
it expands outward) to invert the liner and turn it into a stream
of really hot metal and gas focused on a small area. The explosive
still exhibits a generally spherical blast pattern overall. Set a
fifteen pound demo shaped charge against the average passenger
vehicle and you'll see that it does not *need* the shaped charge
effect to do a pretty good number on the target; that much HE going
off in close contact to the car will tend to ruin everyone's day if
they were unfortunate enough to be inside it.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net



I *did* think about what I wrote.
The blast is going to occur in a place where the roughly spherical
blast front is not likely to affect wheel covers or hubcaps.
The jet will not do much damage in itself,the majority of damage
inside - will- be caused by the blast.

My guess is you have never seen these kind of warheads go off in
proximity to a thin-skinned vehicle--they do tend to do a lot more
than you seem to think against that kind of target.

Brooks


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net



Sure,the blast will blow in the car's glass,and frags shred the metalwork.

But the pressure wave would be directed such that wheel covers or hubcaps
would be pushed ON,not blown off.It may not even be directed towards the
hubcaps.

You seem mighty sure of yourself on this. I could care less what happens to
the freakin' hubcaps--the point is that eight or so pounds of very energetic
HE going off in intimate contact with a friggin'
sheet-metal/fiberglass/plastic carbody will tend to do a LOT of damage. That
HEAT effect is almost an inconsequential byproduct when targeting a
thin-skinned vehicle. If you doubt that, then take a gander at what the
bigger off-route IED's are doing to our troops in Iraq. Or take the example
of an M21 AT mine set to go off *not* in intimate contact with a vehicle
(M21's use the platter charge, or IIRC Miznay-Schardin effect, and I doubt
they have much more HE in them than a Hellfire does)--we did that with an
old M880 pick-up truck and physically relocated that puppy (and that
penetrator had little to do with accomplishing *that*) (and we sort of
****ed off the range control guys in the process...).

Brooks



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

In message - "Kevin Brooks"
writes:


[snip]

There was at least one case when a terrorists leader remained alive
because he was sitting in a front seat while the missile hit the
back seat. So it seems the blast effect is far from spherical.

I'd think it more likely that he was rather lucky, or had the benefit of
some armor protection, or a combination of both. Then again, did the missile
actually strike the vehicle, or was it a near miss? Eight or ten pounds of
Comp B (or whatever they are using as a filler) going off in intimate
contact with the side of the average POV is going to be an experience that
only the lucky occupants survive.

Brooks

Yes, the missile DID hit the car, only the wrong seats row.

************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

In message - "Ragnar"
writes:


"Arie Kazachin" wrote in message
...
In message - "Kevin Brooks"
writes:
For some reason, people like Hitler or Arafat
tend to by lucky enough to be saved from a bomb by a heavy table or to
walk
away from a plane crash...

Well, in Arafat's case, the Israeli government has made a conscious decision
NOT to target him for years. He could have been easily whacked on a number
of occasions.




I was talking about a plane crash that happened to Arafat many years
ago which killed few of his guards but he got out alive, unfortunately...


************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|