ORCA lower than MEA?

Sam Spade wrote:

Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:



Now, with RNAV-direct common, you have to fly at, or above, the
Center's MIA at a VFR altitude.



No.



Oh? Please enlighten me.

We do it every night with the Beech 99's and 1900's that fly the mail
for the postal service. They all want OTP now that the winter winds are
howling. Most want direct also so we clear them direct and OTP. They
will often start out at 6500 westbound, my MVA is 7,000 starting 20
miles out. Not my problem. They are way below the center's MIA,
especially as they near the mountains. Salt Lake terminates radar as
they're way too low for that and asks for a position report in 100 miles
or so. The pilots do not offer or request an altitude and neither we
here at BIL or at ZLC asks.

Sam Spade wrote:



e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to
“maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight plans
must:

1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.

2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14
CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).

3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this
flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio
communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.




That's great but that's a problem for pilots, not ATC.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:15:20 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


So far as the Victor Airway is concerned, my understanding is that it does
not officially exist below the MEA.

It does insofar as you can be cleared on the airway, OTP, and you choose
to be below the MEA.



What I read is that "technically" you should be clearing "via the radials
of V123" rather than "via V123"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:




What I read is that "technically" you should be clearing "via the radials
of V123" rather than "via V123"

We don't because we have no idea what altitude you desire.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:27:42 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Newps, drop me a line via return mail please.

Newps wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:



e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to
“maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight
plans must:

1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.

2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in
14 CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).

3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this
flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio
communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.





That's great but that's a problem for pilots, not ATC.

I agree. But, some ATC facilities will take the pilot to task if he
wants to go below MEA or MIA.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."


True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)


I haven't done it in a long time myself. I did have LA Center a couple
times way back when say "Unable to approve VFR on top at the requested
altitude.."

So, since On Top is an amendment to an IFR clearance I think they can
make whatever they choose out of their responsibilities with on On-Top
amendment to your IFR clearance.

Some controllers or facilities, particularly a mountain-area center,
might reasonably be very unconfortable with the IFR flight plan aspect
of the aircraft being below MIA or MEA.