Swift Boat Veterans For Truth: Are They Going To Sink John Kerry?

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

The presidential debates will certainly be interesting. Let's get Bush
and Kerry mano-y-mano discussing both their roles in service to
country...w/o advisors and partisan-financed groups trying to control
the message and w/o advisors and staff speaking for them.


Right. Anything to avoid discussing Kerry's record since he left the Navy.

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

The presidential debates will certainly be interesting. Let's get Bush
and Kerry mano-y-mano discussing both their roles in service to
country...w/o advisors and partisan-financed groups trying to control
the message and w/o advisors and staff speaking for them.


Right. Anything to avoid discussing Kerry's record since he left the Navy.


That will be there as well. And that record will not include the loss of
2+ million jobs; starting a war based on lies; ignoring large chunks of
his own country; and generally being unfit to lead a Boyscout
pack...much less the country.


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

That will be there as well.


Not if the Democrats can help it.



And that record will not include the loss of
2+ million jobs; starting a war based on lies; ignoring large chunks of
his own country; and generally being unfit to lead a Boyscout
pack...much less the country.


Well, of course it won't, as that has not happened.

(" That will be there as well. And that record will not include the loss of
2+ million jobs; starting a war based on lies; ignoring large chunks of his
own country; and generally being unfit to lead a Boyscout pack...much less
the country.") --Mike

Excuss me if I am wrong, but how did all these jobs get lost, NAFTA?
Crimmial Actions by Large companies. When did these things start....Under
the Clinton presidency. Now Kerry is claiming he will fight to have
companies bring back jobs to the US. How about starting with his WIFEs
companies to show he means what he says. Oh then theres the green side of
kerry..that America needs to drive cleaner cars, and burn less fuel, except
for him, flying is privite jets, 5 climate controled masions year round,
driving SUVs that are his when he is talking to auto makers in Michigan, and
the same SUVs belonging to the family not him when talking to eco-freaks.
Military records stand out more because Kerry has no other record to stand
on. he voted to raise gas taxes way to many times, he and Clinton hurt this
countries military in the 90s, voting to cut inteligent agencies. I believe
every thought we did not need the CIA,NSA,DIA after the cold war ended. But
lets face it the Middle East has always been a hot bed for the American way
of life, and the only importance it has to our intrests is the Oil. Kery has
missed votes while in office because it conflicted to his schedules. It is a
known fact that Iraq had WMDs, and that the fact we have not found them yet
has to deal with where they are, or what country or group has them now.

After 9-11 we had a president willing to go after any state that habored
terrorists, Iraq included becasue it had training camps. After the '93 world
train center bombing Clinton stated that the people involved will be brought
to justice....after the Cole he stated the samething, after the embacies in
Africa the same....Clinton made this country appear weak to a group of
people that want to kill AMERICANs. So they struck, thinking that we would
not do anything but talking tough. Every American wanted revenge on the
people behind 9-11....but now that troops are dying, they want to pull camp
and run. Yeah there was mistakes made in Iraq, but the outcome is the same
it had to be done.

I join the military with the knowledge that someday I could be called to
action. I served fpr 8 years with B-52s on Alert against the Soviet war
machine. I went to the Big sand box for the first Gulf War..Infact I
volunteered on Aug 3rd 1990 while still on alert. I went in Jan 91 and came
home in May 91.

I honor veteran everyday...as I treat there medical conditions as a nurse
for the VA. All wars, all branches, because they gave of themselves,
drafted, volunteered does not matter.

bill

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
analyst41 wrote:

How do you "answer" a group that

(1) said nothing for 30 odd years, or said/wrote in the past the exact
opposite of what they are saying now ?

Wrong. Kerry was publically opposed by several members of the Swift Vets when
he first ran for public office. Kerry invited these men to organize when he
made his service in Vietnam the center piece of his Presidential campaign.

(2) Say that Kerry is lying, Kerry's boatmates are lying, Rassmann is
lying

Well, even the guy who recieved a Bronze Star for the event says he was
surprised to receive it since there was no enemy fire. Sounds like you've got
guys with nothing to gain telling one story and guys with much to gain telling
the other.


snip other "lies"

You have rather conveniently snipped the provable lie about bullet
holes that O'Neill is able to repeat with impunity on his endless TV
appearances - and so poor is Kerry's defnders' performance that he
never gets called on it.

from the Washingtom Post:

A report on "battle damage" to Thurlow's boat mentions "three 30 cal
bullet holes about super structure." According to Thurlow, at least
one of the bullet holes was the result of action the previous day,
when he ran into another Vietcong ambush.

Thurlow, Chenoweth, Pees and several of their crew members who belong
to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth say neither they nor Kerry came under
fire. "If there was fire, I would have made some notation in my
journal," Chenoweth said. "But it didn't happen that way. There wasn't
any fire." Although he read his diary entry to a reporter over the
phone, he declined to supply a copy.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Rassmann said, "are not just
questioning Kerry's account, they are questioning my account. I take
that very personally. No one can tell me that we were not under fire.
I saw it, I heard the splashes, and I was scared to death. For them to
come back 35 years after the fact to tarnish not only Kerry's record,
but my veracity, is unconscionable."

Until now, eyewitness evidence supporting Kerry's version had come
only from his own crewmen. But yesterday, The Post independently
contacted a participant who has not spoken out so far in favor of
either camp who remembers coming under enemy fire. "There was a lot of
firing going on, and it came from both sides of the river," said Wayne
D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat that
was directly behind Kerry's.

Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of
enemy AK-47s, as well as muzzle flashes from the riverbanks.
Langhofer, who now works at a Kansas gunpowder plant, said he was
approached several months ago by leaders of Swift Boat Veterans for
Truth but declined their requests to speak out against Kerry.

End quote.

Thurlow has now been caught - confronted with documented evidence of
bullet holes - all he can come up with is that "at least one" was from
a previous engagement.



These guys can lie endlessly and there is simply no way of refuting
their allegations completely.

Well, if Kerry would personally address the issue instead of sending out his
surrogates to attack the messengers we would at least have two sides to the
story.

But these guys have put themselves out there and they already stand
discredited from the motive standpoint

What motive? Lets pretend Bush himself is organizing this, what could he offer
these guys as payment for their work? Cabnit positions? Money? Face it, these
guys have nothing to gain and that is what makes their story so compelling and
dangerous to the Kerry campaign.

Why should motive only be positive ? these guys hate Kerry for what
he did after coming back from Viet Nam - that is a large part of their
motivation. Any under the table deals with the Bush campaign haven't
been unearthed yet.


These are small-timers who might even crack under the pressure the
Kerry campaign is going to bring to bear on them

The only pressure the Kerry campaign has brought to bear is on the book
publishers and TV stations. This follows the Kerry campaigns absolute
embracement of Michael Moore. Can you say hypocritical?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

In message , Cub Driver
writes
Sure, I will. I read the NYT story yesterday and forwarded it to a
friend who believes that the NYT is an unbiased source. Even he
blushed to admit that it might as well have been an infomercial.

I read the NY Times story and came away unconvinced of anything other
than "a plague on both their houses". Lots of political BS on all sides.

It struck me as the sort of whitewash that would convince only the
individual who paid for it.

It was better whitewash than that, but I'm suspicious of both Kerrey's
claims and the Swift Boats Veterans. (If only because there's no 'Delta
Dart Drivers' club bashing Bush Jr.)

I don't know what the truth might be in this matter, but I hope the
Swifties will pursue it until the last "Bush AWOL" site is taken down
and the owner apologizes for defaming an F102 pilot who did his job
and by all accounts did it well. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

I'd class myself as centrist, which doubtless is a misspelling of either
"communist fellow-traveller" or "fascist baby-eater", on this issue. At
top level, Kerrey was not in a safe, routine, Stateside assignment, nor
was he 'photocopier officer' on a ship well out of harm's way, but he
spent a few months in direct-fire range of the enemy and may even have
got shot at himself on a few occasions.

On the other hand, George Bush Jr. qualified to fly and logged many
hours in the F-102 Delta Dart: while it may not have been the newest or
*most* dangerous aircraft available, it killed a sad roll-call of pilots
and was more dangerous than its replacements. And flying a fighter is
*not* easy. He "skipped his extended service"? Really? Where's the memo
calling him up to train to fly F-106s or F-4s? And where's the training
slot left empty because he never showed?


I've decided that I thoroughly dislike the policies of both candidates,
I don't get a vote on the issue, and I wish all the partisan ********
would go away so r.a.m can get back to talking about military aviation.
But both of them appear to have rendered respectable service thirty-some
years ago.

Why not concentrate on "what they'd do now and for the next four years"
rather rhan obsess about "what they did thirty years ago"?

I see that the Swifties' book was the number-one seller on Amazon
yesterday. I reckon it has legs.

Al Franken and Ann Coulter have both sold well. Doesn't make either of
them right.

(Coulter is *scary* from what she says here, not seen a UK interview of
Franken)




--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
news

It was better whitewash than that, but I'm suspicious of both Kerrey's
claims and the Swift Boats Veterans. (If only because there's no 'Delta
Dart Drivers' club bashing Bush Jr.)


Why would there be? Bush did nothing to defame F-102 pilots.

Well said, Paul. But note that the NYT story was supposed to be about
the Swifties' claims but was actually an attack on them. "A plague on
both..." is actually a win for the Kerry campaign.

Instead of investigating the subject of the book (and ads, presumably,
though I watch no TV and see no ads), Kerry's supporters in the media
have undertaken to investigate the authors. Only a very few
conservative or right-wing newspapers (Wall Street Journal, Boston
Herald, Washington Times, New York Post) have given the subject the
treatment it deserves. (The same treatment that the Washington Post
and the Boston Globe so enthusiastically gave the "Bush AWOL" stories,
by the way, knowing that even a fair-handed treatment would leave some
slime behind.)

-- Dan Ford

(I attach your post below, so somebody can learn what I'm replying to




On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:35:38 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , Cub Driver
writes
Sure, I will. I read the NYT story yesterday and forwarded it to a
friend who believes that the NYT is an unbiased source. Even he
blushed to admit that it might as well have been an infomercial.

I read the NY Times story and came away unconvinced of anything other
than "a plague on both their houses". Lots of political BS on all sides.

It struck me as the sort of whitewash that would convince only the
individual who paid for it.

It was better whitewash than that, but I'm suspicious of both Kerrey's
claims and the Swift Boats Veterans. (If only because there's no 'Delta
Dart Drivers' club bashing Bush Jr.)

I don't know what the truth might be in this matter, but I hope the
Swifties will pursue it until the last "Bush AWOL" site is taken down
and the owner apologizes for defaming an F102 pilot who did his job
and by all accounts did it well. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

I'd class myself as centrist, which doubtless is a misspelling of either
"communist fellow-traveller" or "fascist baby-eater", on this issue. At
top level, Kerrey was not in a safe, routine, Stateside assignment, nor
was he 'photocopier officer' on a ship well out of harm's way, but he
spent a few months in direct-fire range of the enemy and may even have
got shot at himself on a few occasions.

On the other hand, George Bush Jr. qualified to fly and logged many
hours in the F-102 Delta Dart: while it may not have been the newest or
*most* dangerous aircraft available, it killed a sad roll-call of pilots
and was more dangerous than its replacements. And flying a fighter is
*not* easy. He "skipped his extended service"? Really? Where's the memo
calling him up to train to fly F-106s or F-4s? And where's the training
slot left empty because he never showed?


I've decided that I thoroughly dislike the policies of both candidates,
I don't get a vote on the issue, and I wish all the partisan ********
would go away so r.a.m can get back to talking about military aviation.
But both of them appear to have rendered respectable service thirty-some
years ago.

Why not concentrate on "what they'd do now and for the next four years"
rather rhan obsess about "what they did thirty years ago"?

I see that the Swifties' book was the number-one seller on Amazon
yesterday. I reckon it has legs.

Al Franken and Ann Coulter have both sold well. Doesn't make either of
them right.

(Coulter is *scary* from what she says here, not seen a UK interview of
Franken)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

"BOB" wrote in message ...

You mean that's what you goose-stepping, neocon wingnut Bush
bootlickers and lapdogs consider consider "liberal" to mean.


No, that's the way it is.



Not the real world.


It appears you're out of touch with the real world.

(BUFDRVR) writes:

The point is more whether the ads are lies. Everything I've seen on it
says they are.

Obviously "every where" you've looked for your "everything" doesn't include any
unbiased sources. The swift vets claims have yet to be answered by Kerry, so
determing truth or lies hasn't even been made yet. I do know that Kerry's lies
about Cambodia have been exposed by the Swift vets so if anyone is turning out
to be a liar, it appears to be Kerry.


Just saw this:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...l=chi-news-hed



Feb. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
Anti-Kerry vets not there that day

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 21, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more
than 35 years ago-three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of
those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28,
1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a
Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the
focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of
swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve
the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and
three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us-the rivers, the ambushes,
the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for
interviews about Kerry's service-even those from reporters at the
Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have
charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The
critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts
on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has
splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those
of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue,
especially when they come from people who were not there.

.......

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