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The one minute turn that can save your life



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 3rd 07, 07:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Cecil Chapman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

Question:

As part of the Private Pilot training there is a minimum of 3 hours of
hood/instrument training required.

One of the things which seems to be always taught (it was the way I was
taught and the way I am instructing) is the one minute standard rate turn
which is to be used by a Private Pilot if he/she gets theirselves into some
IMC, inadvertently.

No matter who I ask, I get the same technique (which is the way I was
trained during my PPL training); standard rate turn, one minute (3 degrees
per second times 60 equals 180 degrees). Aside from the scenario where
there is a vacuum system failure (where you lose the DG, for example), what
is so wrong with teaching them to look at the bottom of the heading
indicator and standard rate turn to that value? The answers I get when I
ask this question, vary from, 'I was just taught to use time', 'the pilot is
likely to forget the 180 degree heading they were supposed to roll out on',
etc...

I teach, by timing, just as I was taught, but still haven't got a compelling
answer as to why not have them look at the 'bottom' of the DG and turn to
that heading (standard rate)? For those I've spoken to that have said,
"they are more likely to forget the heading than mess up the time", I can
see that they could just as easily lose track of the time as they could the
clock.

Anyone have any 'whys' on this one?

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -


Ads
  #2  
Old February 3rd 07, 07:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Danny Deger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default The one minute turn that can save your life


"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
...
Question:

As part of the Private Pilot training there is a minimum of 3 hours of
hood/instrument training required.

One of the things which seems to be always taught (it was the way I was
taught and the way I am instructing) is the one minute standard rate turn
which is to be used by a Private Pilot if he/she gets theirselves into
some IMC, inadvertently.

No matter who I ask, I get the same technique (which is the way I was
trained during my PPL training); standard rate turn, one minute (3 degrees
per second times 60 equals 180 degrees). Aside from the scenario where
there is a vacuum system failure (where you lose the DG, for example),
what is so wrong with teaching them to look at the bottom of the heading
indicator and standard rate turn to that value? The answers I get when I
ask this question, vary from, 'I was just taught to use time', 'the pilot
is likely to forget the 180 degree heading they were supposed to roll out
on', etc...

I teach, by timing, just as I was taught, but still haven't got a
compelling answer as to why not have them look at the 'bottom' of the DG
and turn to that heading (standard rate)? For those I've spoken to that
have said, "they are more likely to forget the heading than mess up the
time", I can see that they could just as easily lose track of the time as
they could the clock.


This may be a hold over to the old days when a common VFR panel was a turn
and bank and a mag compass. In this case using the compass while turning is
not good because of the known error caused by being banked.

Danny Deger


  #3  
Old February 3rd 07, 08:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
G. Sylvester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

I'm not a CFII but am ASEL-IA. I found super-basic attitude flying
pretty easy after only during those 3 hours with my CFI. So from my
perspective, I don't know why either. Whatever is easiest to fix the
VFR into IMC scenario. The only thing I'd think of is the VFR pilot
might sweat the small stuff by being off 5 degrees on the heading. The
one thing that many CFII don't teach is that the pilot should be able to
do a standard rate turn using the AI only. It won't be a perfect
standard rate turn but we're not looking for perfection, just something
to save their hides. Most students are flying 152 / 172 to Warrior type
airplanes which means ~15 degree bank at cruis speed. Use the AI to
keep a level pitch attitude and maintain altitude. Basically all the
student would have to do is look at the AI and the DG rather than having
to fly effectively partial panel. From everything that I've read, heard
, taught and practice, IFR flying is 80% plus looking at the AI with
quick glances for confirmation to the other instruments. Why do it
differently for VFR students?

Gerald
  #4  
Old February 3rd 07, 08:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Dohm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,754
Default The one minute turn that can save your life


"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
...
Question:

As part of the Private Pilot training there is a minimum of 3 hours of
hood/instrument training required.

One of the things which seems to be always taught (it was the way I was
taught and the way I am instructing) is the one minute standard rate turn
which is to be used by a Private Pilot if he/she gets theirselves into

some
IMC, inadvertently.

No matter who I ask, I get the same technique (which is the way I was
trained during my PPL training); standard rate turn, one minute (3 degrees
per second times 60 equals 180 degrees). Aside from the scenario where
there is a vacuum system failure (where you lose the DG, for example),

what
is so wrong with teaching them to look at the bottom of the heading
indicator and standard rate turn to that value? The answers I get when I
ask this question, vary from, 'I was just taught to use time', 'the pilot

is
likely to forget the 180 degree heading they were supposed to roll out

on',
etc...

I teach, by timing, just as I was taught, but still haven't got a

compelling
answer as to why not have them look at the 'bottom' of the DG and turn to
that heading (standard rate)? For those I've spoken to that have said,
"they are more likely to forget the heading than mess up the time", I can
see that they could just as easily lose track of the time as they could

the
clock.

Anyone have any 'whys' on this one?

It's probably a carry-over from the old style of directional gyro, which
looked a lot like a larger wet compass with a caging knob mounted in the
panel. What is now thought of as the bottom of the display was out of view
on the far side (back) of the instrument.

I don't know when those ceased to be installed in new aircraft, but there
were a lot of them still in service in the 1980's--and they had a couple of
interesting quirks. They could be easily tumbled by an excessive bank angle
and the caging knob could also be left engaged--supposedly to prevent damage
when practicing spins in VMC. I was taught to ALWAYS pull the knob back AND
twist it sharply after resetting the direction to make SURE that it was not
still engaged.

IIRC, there was also a related quirk to the old "gull wing" artificial
horizons--in addition to being devilishly difficult to use. I believe that
they tumbled at just over 60 degrees of bank, and were very slow to recover.

The overall result was that, in the bad old days, the turn indicator was the
only gyro based instrument that you could always trust--even when taken by
surprise.

Peter


  #5  
Old February 3rd 07, 08:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Don Tuite
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 319
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:43:54 -0600, "Danny Deger"
wrote:


This may be a hold over to the old days when a common VFR panel was a turn
and bank and a mag compass. In this case using the compass while turning is
not good because of the known error caused by being banked.

+1
Needle, ball, and airspeed.

Don

  #6  
Old February 3rd 07, 08:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bob Gardner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

I trust the clock more than the heading indicator. So what if you roll out a
few degrees off of exactly 180? If you are trying to escape weather or avoid
special use airspace, the name of the game is to go away, not to go away on
a specific heading. Anyone who can't remember that the second hand (gotta
have one, you know) was on the twelve, or whatever, should have his or her
head examined.

Bob Gardner
"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
...
Question:

As part of the Private Pilot training there is a minimum of 3 hours of
hood/instrument training required.

One of the things which seems to be always taught (it was the way I was
taught and the way I am instructing) is the one minute standard rate turn
which is to be used by a Private Pilot if he/she gets theirselves into
some IMC, inadvertently.

No matter who I ask, I get the same technique (which is the way I was
trained during my PPL training); standard rate turn, one minute (3 degrees
per second times 60 equals 180 degrees). Aside from the scenario where
there is a vacuum system failure (where you lose the DG, for example),
what is so wrong with teaching them to look at the bottom of the heading
indicator and standard rate turn to that value? The answers I get when I
ask this question, vary from, 'I was just taught to use time', 'the pilot
is likely to forget the 180 degree heading they were supposed to roll out
on', etc...

I teach, by timing, just as I was taught, but still haven't got a
compelling answer as to why not have them look at the 'bottom' of the DG
and turn to that heading (standard rate)? For those I've spoken to that
have said, "they are more likely to forget the heading than mess up the
time", I can see that they could just as easily lose track of the time as
they could the clock.

Anyone have any 'whys' on this one?

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -



  #7  
Old February 3rd 07, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
John T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 194
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message


From
everything that I've read, heard , taught and practice, IFR flying is
80% plus looking at the AI with quick glances for confirmation to the
other instruments. Why do it differently for VFR students?


Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I don't use the AI nearly that much in my IMC
flying. Still, your point about 12-15 degrees bank for standard rate is a
good rule of thumb.

I think teaching the standard rate turn helps prevent overbanking and
spatial disorientation in a pilot who may not be accustomed to gray-filled
windshields. Using the DG in addition to this helps the student/pilot get
pointed in the right direction, but using relatively gentle turns at
standard rate to get to that heading may prevent entry to a graveyard
spiral.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________


  #8  
Old February 3rd 07, 10:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
NW_Pilot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 436
Default The one minute turn that can save your life


"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
...
Question:

As part of the Private Pilot training there is a minimum of 3 hours of
hood/instrument training required.

One of the things which seems to be always taught (it was the way I was
taught and the way I am instructing) is the one minute standard rate turn
which is to be used by a Private Pilot if he/she gets theirselves into
some IMC, inadvertently.

No matter who I ask, I get the same technique (which is the way I was
trained during my PPL training); standard rate turn, one minute (3 degrees
per second times 60 equals 180 degrees). Aside from the scenario where
there is a vacuum system failure (where you lose the DG, for example),
what is so wrong with teaching them to look at the bottom of the heading
indicator and standard rate turn to that value? The answers I get when I
ask this question, vary from, 'I was just taught to use time', 'the pilot
is likely to forget the 180 degree heading they were supposed to roll out
on', etc...

I teach, by timing, just as I was taught, but still haven't got a
compelling answer as to why not have them look at the 'bottom' of the DG
and turn to that heading (standard rate)? For those I've spoken to that
have said, "they are more likely to forget the heading than mess up the
time", I can see that they could just as easily lose track of the time as
they could the clock.

Anyone have any 'whys' on this one?

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -


Cecil, go look back in to your instrument training about gyro precession and
turning!


  #9  
Old February 3rd 07, 11:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bill Denton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

Of course, given the FAA's current thinking, the whole thing may be moot...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

From AC 91-75

b. Replacing the rate-of-turn indicator will mean losing an easy reference
for standard rate turns. However, in today's air traffic control system,
there is little need for precisely measured standard rate turns or timed
turns based on standard rate. Maintaining a given bank angle on the attitude
indicator for a given speed will result in a standard rate turn. Pilots
using this AC to substitute an attitude indicator for their rate-of-turn
indicator are encouraged to know the bank angle needed for a standard rate
turn.

NOTE: The FAA preamble language for the 1970 amendment to section 91.33,
re-codified to section 91.205, states: "[T]he FAA believes, and all other
commenters apparently agree . the rate-of-turn indicator is no longer as
useful as an instrument which gives both horizontal and vertical attitude
information."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

So you may soon be seeing students who have never flown a turn
coordinator...


  #10  
Old February 4th 07, 01:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ron Natalie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,175
Default The one minute turn that can save your life

Danny Deger wrote:

This may be a hold over to the old days when a common VFR panel was a turn
and bank and a mag compass. In this case using the compass while turning is
not good because of the known error caused by being banked.

DG's are not required for VFR flight.

Even the partial panel IFR training typically use the needle to make
timed turns to heading. Once you settle down you can verify with
the mag compass you're on the heading you want.
 




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