Catastrophic Decompression; Small Place Solo

"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:
"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote:

The structure of an A/C is designed to flex, expand, & contract as the A/C
goes thru pressurization/de-pressurization cycles.

There are a few places a "Very High Velocity Bullet" of large caliber could
possibly exit the external skin if it the internal point of impact was at a
"very specific angle, very close to 90 degrees to external skin" if fired
from close range internally. Consider all the materials described above a
bullet would have to impact/penetrate, without its path being diverted by
some degree of ricochet.

Really? I saw a movie in the 1960s where a guy with a .38 revolver
tried to shoot another pax on an airliner (I think it was a DC-7), and
he missed and the slug went through the cabin wall and hit an engine and
set it on fire. :-]

Was that the 1 with the promotion for "Scenic Florida Vacation Property at
+/- 2' sea level" as a "Promotional Trailer"?

It happened on a flight from San Francisco to Hawaii. :-)

Jon

I have friends who were hit in the pressurized cockpit of fighters and
experienced explosive decompression. Of course they were wearing their
masks and unless the hit made the plane un flyable they just returned
to base and landed.

Another example of explosive decompression was the British "Comet' Jet
Transport. The fuselage exploded and everything went to flight
altitude pressure. Of course the damage to the aircraft made it un
flyable so it crashed.

A current model transport I have heard about was the 737 out of Hawaii
a few years ago. Cabin blew out (due to corrosion) and a 'stew' was
lost (not strapped in). They flew the bird back and landed it with a
10 foot by 10 foot hole in the fuselage.

Probably some other instances but not hitting on all since my return
from FL and Xmas visit with my family.

Big John

In altitude chamber, when they demo the explosive decompression, there
is no ear problem as the air in the inner ear is blown out and goes to
the higher altitude (lower air pressure). The other way, on descent,
if you have an infection or blockage in the ear/sinus you can get
blockage very easy. You should remember that you have to clear your
ears on a normal descent for landing from cruising cabin pressure
altitude on a commercial jet (that's going from a lower pressure to a
higher pressure).

HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL


----clip----

Have any of you experienced an actual explosive decompression while in
flight?

Jon

Robert

You may know or someone?

As I recall there are some times when one of the pilots has to wear a
mask. Is it above a certain altitude or some other condition (like one
pilot leaving the cockpit???)

Remember it was a safety measure.

Big John


On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:13:10 GMT, Robert Moore
wrote:

"John Gaquin" wrote
Truth is, if you're cruising at FL350 or higher you've only got about 5
seconds max to get the mask on, but it only takes about one to two
seconds to don the mask and get full O2 flowing.

From the following web site:

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html

A larger body of information about how long you would remain conscious comes
from aviation medicine. Aviation medicine defines the "time of useful
consciousness", that is, how long after a decompression incident pilots will
be awake and be sufficiently aware to take active measures to save their
lives. Above 40,000 feet (12 km), the time of useful consciousness is 12 to
25 seconds. (The shorter figure is for a person actively moving; the longer
figure is for a person sitting quietly.)

The number that we were always taught in the airline business was that at
39,000', the time of useful conciousness was 18 seconds.

Bob Moore

Most movies use physics from an alternate universe. Bullets flash when they
hit things (even wood!). People outrun shock waves from explosions. The MAC
10 holds an infinite amount of ammo. You can poison a whole airplane by
contaminating the pressurization and/or the oxygen system. Alternatively,
the airplane pressurization will keep a plane filled with air even under
water. Small aircraft routinely outclimb and run into airliners.

As for Goldfinger, I suppose he *could* have hit the elevator and jammed it
when he was sucked out. But, really, why let the facts get in the way of a
good story?

As for solo flight, usually I just sign the student's log book and get out
of the airplane. I will have already briefed him on what I want him to do
during the solo -- three takeoffs and landings. A flight plan is not
required for VFR flight in the United States and most pilots do not file
one, especially if they are just going to remain in the local pattern. It is
only used for search and rescue, although some areas demanding extra
security since 9/11 also require a flight plan. The student would not call
the tower if there was no tower at the airport.

"Dr. George O. Bizzigotti" wrote in message
...
|
| One aspect that I have not seen addressed in this thread is the fact
| that most oxygen systems can provide supplemental oxygen for a few
| minutes only (I dimly recall figures like 3-5 minutes, but that may be
| inaccurate). The pilots also need to get down to 10,000 feet within
| that time before everyone's oxygen generators run out.
|

It really does not matter. The worst that will happen is that some people
will pass out, but it would be life threatening only to a very frail person.
As the airplane descends the time of useful consciousness increases rapidly,
so that oxygen would really only be needed for the first few minutes of
descent.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 at 19:32:31 in message
jvFIb.85543$VB2.191432@attbi_s51, Jon Woellhaf
wrote:

Yeah, right! First there's a loud bang and everyone thinks a bomb has gone
off. Then the cabin fills with super cold thick fog. The pilot puts the
plane in a dive to get to breathable air and the masks are hanging a couple
feet in front of you. I think it would be absolute chaos.

Have any of you experienced an actual explosive decompression while in
flight?

The nearest case I can find a record of is the 747-122 N44713U incident
on February 24, 1989.

It was climbing out of Hawaii when at 23,000 ft the front cargo door
blew off. This went with a big bang and took a large section of cabin
wall above with it. 9 passengers were ejected and never found, all but
one from the outer pairs of seats. There was a sudden thump followed by
'a mind shattering explosion'. The aircraft lurched, there was a huge
jump in wind noise and sudden misting of the cabin and flight deck. It
was dark and the lights went out. Many thought their last hour had come.
The cabin altitude warning sounded, the crew started an emergency
descent and turned 180 degrees to head back to Honolulu. No 3 engine was
now losing power. The gap in the skin extended up as far as the upper
deck windows.

The aircraft was landed. 17 passengers suffered injuries.

That was a very big hole!
--
David CL Francis

C J Campbell wrote in message
...
Most movies use physics from an alternate universe. Bullets flash when
they
hit things (even wood!). People outrun shock waves from explosions. The
MAC
10 holds an infinite amount of ammo. You can poison a whole airplane by
contaminating the pressurization and/or the oxygen system. Alternatively,
the airplane pressurization will keep a plane filled with air even under
water. Small aircraft routinely outclimb and run into airliners.

As for Goldfinger, I suppose he *could* have hit the elevator and jammed
it
when he was sucked out. But, really, why let the facts get in the way of a
good story?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3039583.stm

An interesting take on the situation especially in light of the fact that
there has been a case of a cabin window being shattered by engine debris
resulting in a PAX being blown out through that window.

Paul Nixon

Big John wrote
As I recall there are some times when one of the pilots has to wear a
mask. Is it above a certain altitude or some other condition (like one
pilot leaving the cockpit???)

Yes...above FL240, if one pilot leaves the cockpit, the remaining
one must wear the mask and use the oxygen. From my own personal
experience, it was not very well enforced at any airline. At PanAm,
the PIC was encouraged to drill the crew in donning the masks with
one hand in less than the required 5 seconds.

Bob Moore

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 at 11:53:49 in message
, Scott M. Kozel wrote:

How could an SST like the Concorde get from cruising altitude down to
10,000 feet in 3-5 minutes?

I believe with the two inboard engines on reverse thrust the outer two
on idle. On my only Concorde flight (a test with volunteer passengers)
we descended from cruise height with two engines on reverse thrust. All
I remember was that the clouds below seemed to come up very fast!
--
David CL Francis

Contrary to popular opinion you may be on insulin and get a 3rd class
medical. You must only keep you A1C sugar within limits, pass a series
of medical tests and follow a test regimen during flight quarters. The
fly in the ointment is that you must have a flight physical every 90
days. This correlates with the A1C blood glucose test.
I am a difficult diabetic patient. I have not stabilized to a
significant enough degree as to be able to pass the A1c. BTW the limits
are very liberal for passing. The other problem is that the tests can
cost several thousand dollars but only have to be done once. Your
glucose is very much within tolerance and if you have no nerve or blood
circulation problems you should be able to qualify. I'm still working on it.
This program has been in effect for more than 5 years I believe.

Dave Nagel

Jerry Hall wrote:
John. It seems that once you move from oral medication to insulin as a
treatment for diabetes, that is the death knell to one's medical
certificate. Lord knows I've certainly jumped through a lot of hoops.
Several years ago the FAA medical folks as much as said, "Give it up,
turkey. You're not getting your medical reinstated." I go through a
similar line of BS in keeping my automobile driver's license. And my
glucose readings seldom go over 140. Have been hoping the newer "Sport"
license might allow me to fly again. Then there are ultralights but
that just isn't quite the same thing. To steal a line from Top Gun, I
feel the need for speed. Had a 177 RG. Jerry

John E. Carty wrote:

"Jerry Hall" wrote in message
...

When I conducted my first solo flight, it was pretty much a non-event
except that I had the plane to myself. After about thirty minutes of
dual - read that as two of us in the airplane, student (me) and the
instructor - including several landings at a controlled (has a tower)
airport, the instructor had me taxi over to the base of the tower and
shut the airplane down. He then asked for my log book and scribbled
an endorsement in the back certifying that I was qualified for solo
flight. Mind you, I had already received ten hours of flight training
up to that point plus extensive text work as well. He then told me
to keep the airplane "in the pattern", i.e. don't leave the
controlled airspace surrounding the airport: approximately a five
mile radius. I was then to perform three "touch and goes" - landings
in which you place the airplane on the runway but do not come to a
stop but rather retract the flaps while still rolling, apply power,
and takeoff again. Then I was to land with a full stop and return to
the tower. He said he would watch with the controllers. Geez, now I
had an audience. I contacted the tower via radio and was given
clearance to takeoff and stay in the pattern. I remembered I was
literally shaking, not with fear but with exhilaration. "Don't screw
this up, don't screw this up," was my mantra. I advanced the
throttle once I was positioned on the centerline of the runway and,
in my estimation, the little Cessna 152 leapt forward, unencumbered
by the weight of a second person. Reaching 50 knots, I gently pulled
back on the yoke and the plane rotated and departed the runway.
"WOW! I was flying! Really flying! I was in control! I am a pilot!"
It was all I could do to not start whistling the theme from "The High
and the Mighty." The rest is history.



Many hundreds and hundreds of flight hours (PIC or Pilot In Command)
later and innummerable aircraft, I find myself grounded due to diabetes.



Have you thought about getting a special issuance (if your diabetes is
under fairly good control) to get your medical back and start flying
again? :-)


Nothing will ever quite compare to that first solo flight. God I
miss it. Jerry


Aviation wrote:

I have two questions inspired by Hollywood movies.

In the movies (Goldfinger, Executive Decision and so on), when
pressurized aircraft suffer catastrophic decompression
at high (25000+ feet) altitude (usually when the bad guy shoots a
bullet through a window) everything not tied down gets sucked out of
the plane and the aircraft goes into an immediate, rapid nose dive
and the pilots or the good guys have to struggle to level it off or
prevent a crash. Is this an automatic "safety" feature of real,
regular aircraft? On the one hand, passengers need to get denser
air to breathe but large aircraft have oxygen masks that drop down.
(I could do some rough estimates that the average fat slob can hold
their breath for less than a minute so, without masks, the jet
would have to go from let's say 30000 feet to 5000 feet in 30-45
seconds. My ears would explode.)

I would think that a crash dive to a lower altitude could be even
more dangerous such as if it occurred in a crowded air corridor.
Maybe there are other dangers.

What REALLY happens (or is supposed to happen) in the event
of sudden decompression of real high flying aircraft? The second
Hollywood inspired question comes from Executive
Decision (1996). The main character is taking flying lessons
in a single prop 2-seater plane and lands. The plane is still
running (on the ground) and his instructor says, 'I think you're
ready to solo' and gets out. The main character starts to taxi and
then other non-flying plot developments happen. I was wondering if
taking your FIRST solo flight is that simple. The location in the
film in Washington, DC but I figure all
US flying is FAA regulated. Wouldn't the first time soloist have to
fill out some forms, file a flight plan with the airport and maybe
even do a complete pre-flight check on the aircraft? Is the
simplified movie solo flight completely bogus or could it happen
that way?


THANK YOU VERY MUCH.