Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
That's a good point. Dave Nadlers Anteres 20e is for sale and is ready to go. Probably not much more than a new FES -8 meter glider (maybe less). Self launch, etc. Might be worth a peek!

I certainly considered it. The Antares 20E is my dream machine. Dave was of the opinion that it's not suitable for a low-time pilot, I guess because of the need to handle the possibility of the motor not starting and the motor pylon failing to retract. Also, because of the increased complexity of a self launcher in general. I have reservations about Lange as a company, too.. There are rumors of lawsuits against them and their US distributor just quit. It's a pity because the Antares 20E is an amazing machine. I hope another manufacturer steps up and builds a new electric 18m self launcher. Electric power just makes so much sense for sailplanes.

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 1:42:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
...Dave Nadler's Antares 20e is for sale and is ready to go...

I certainly considered it. The Antares 20E is my dream machine.
Dave was of the opinion that it's not suitable for a low-time pilot,
I guess because of the need to handle the possibility of the motor
not starting and the motor pylon failing to retract. Also, because
of the increased complexity of a self launcher in general.

To repeat what I said to Ben:

The Antares is a VERY easy machine to fly, with failure modes
(especially sink with pylon out and motor stopped) more benign
than anything except FES (but Antares has fewer controls!).

Ben informed me he has 50 hours experience, with
no experience in high performance or with flaps.
Please no offense, but you're discussing the merits of various
models, with a guy just received driver's permit,
in the Ferrari showroom.

50 hours is IMHO no where near enough to be considering motorized
gliders and certainly not self-launchers. FIRST get a 100 or 200
hours of experience in high-performance, including XC and a few
out-landings, THEN get the self-launch training and endorsement.

A seriously motivated person can do this quickly by booking continuous
training courses at any number of advanced operations (available
certainly in Europe, Oz, not in USA this time of year). Certainly
I know folks that have gone from zero to complex gliders including
self-launch quickly and safely this way. Flying with most clubs
it will be VERY hard to quickly get up to the level of experience
needed to be safe in advanced machines (even in the few USA clubs
with the appropriate equipment and instructors). No disrespect
to Ben's club either, and I'd love to see it work, but truly...

Hope this helps clear some of the fog,
and Ben hope you have a blast learning,
Best Regards, Dave

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:24:13 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 1:42:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
...Dave Nadler's Antares 20e is for sale and is ready to go...

I certainly considered it. The Antares 20E is my dream machine.
Dave was of the opinion that it's not suitable for a low-time pilot,
I guess because of the need to handle the possibility of the motor
not starting and the motor pylon failing to retract. Also, because
of the increased complexity of a self launcher in general.

To repeat what I said to Ben:

The Antares is a VERY easy machine to fly, with failure modes
(especially sink with pylon out and motor stopped) more benign
than anything except FES (but Antares has fewer controls!).

Ben informed me he has 50 hours experience, with
no experience in high performance or with flaps.
Please no offense, but you're discussing the merits of various
models, with a guy just received driver's permit,
in the Ferrari showroom.

50 hours is IMHO no where near enough to be considering motorized
gliders and certainly not self-launchers. FIRST get a 100 or 200
hours of experience in high-performance, including XC and a few
out-landings, THEN get the self-launch training and endorsement.

A seriously motivated person can do this quickly by booking continuous
training courses at any number of advanced operations (available
certainly in Europe, Oz, not in USA this time of year). Certainly
I know folks that have gone from zero to complex gliders including
self-launch quickly and safely this way. Flying with most clubs
it will be VERY hard to quickly get up to the level of experience
needed to be safe in advanced machines (even in the few USA clubs
with the appropriate equipment and instructors). No disrespect
to Ben's club either, and I'd love to see it work, but truly...

Hope this helps clear some of the fog,
and Ben hope you have a blast learning,
Best Regards, Dave

Dave, I agree that most motorized gliders are not suitable for a new pilot, but if you're saying that glider with a FES sustainer (non-self-launching) isn't appropriate for a new pilot, I'm afraid I disagree. The FES system could not be simpler to operate. If it fails to run in flight, it adds no additional pilot workload the way a pylon mounted motor would. It does not make the aircraft more difficult to fly, or add any meaningful amount of risk.. In fact, by avoiding outlandings, I think it will reduce the risk I'm exposing myself to by flying sailplanes.

If you're simply objecting to me buying a high performance sailplane with 50 hours of experience, then please read my previous posts. By the time I take delivery of one of these high performance gliders, I will have accumulated a decent amount of experience in my club's high performance gliders. If I'm qualified to fly my club's high performance gliders, I don't see why I wouldn't be qualified to fly my own high performance glider, FES or not.

I just bought an Antares 20E awesome ship very easy to fly! 10-12 sec extend retract time. SIMPLE engine control full forward with power lever and 10-12 seconds later you are climbing. Launch to 2000' about 12-15% of battery power. Recharges with automatic shutdown in the trailer!

May I suggest a different concept?
What would be wrong with ordering something like a "Ventus 3 FES" (it won't be called that) and while you're waiting buy and fly a more simple flying machine like an older Discus, LS4 or 7, ASW19, Pegase, etc? You can sell that when the new ship is on the way. At that point you'll be flying a superb new FES glider with a much more experienced approach. Experience might mean having landed out a few times, damaging it while rigging, who knows, but perhaps less stress to learn on the less expensive glider and it's all good for you in the end.
Jim

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 3:15:57 PM UTC-8, JS wrote:
May I suggest a different concept?
What would be wrong with ordering something like a "Ventus 3 FES" (it won't be called that) and while you're waiting buy and fly a more simple flying machine like an older Discus, LS4 or 7, ASW19, Pegase, etc? You can sell that when the new ship is on the way. At that point you'll be flying a superb new FES glider with a much more experienced approach. Experience might mean having landed out a few times, damaging it while rigging, who knows, but perhaps less stress to learn on the less expensive glider and it's all good for you in the end.
Jim

Sure, but why buy an older glider when I can fly my club's gliders? Are you thinking I'll be able to get more flying time in my own ship? My club has an ample stable that includes a DG-1000, DG-505 and two Pegasi that barely get used. So far, getting a glider when I want one hasn't been a problem.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:58:06 -0800, benhirashima wrote:

Sure, but why buy an older glider when I can fly my club's gliders? Are
you thinking I'll be able to get more flying time in my own ship? My
club has an ample stable that includes a DG-1000, DG-505 and two Pegasi
that barely get used. So far, getting a glider when I want one hasn't
been a problem.

Grab the Peg(s) and put some serious time onto them. Pegs are nice to fly
and I've always found them more comfortable than a Discus. Besides, its a
shame to let a Peg sit in a hangar when it could be flown.

I got Silver C in my club's SZD Juniors before converting to my club's
high performance fleet (a Peg 90 and two Discii) and spent two years
flying mainly the Peg, which suited me better than the Discii, before
buying.

I almost got Gold distance in the Peg (6 attempts foiled by various
mistakes at up to 100 km from home) and two of us had immense fun flying
it in the local Regionals. I learned a lot from flying it as well as
firming up my ideas about what I wanted in a glider, what I want my panel
to show and where I prefer instruments to be placed.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

....and no experience with flaps with any of those except, maybe on of
the Pegase models.

On 12/10/2015 4:15 PM, JS wrote:
May I suggest a different concept?
What would be wrong with ordering something like a "Ventus 3 FES" (it won't be called that) and while you're waiting buy and fly a more simple flying machine like an older Discus, LS4 or 7, ASW19, Pegase, etc? You can sell that when the new ship is on the way. At that point you'll be flying a superb new FES glider with a much more experienced approach. Experience might mean having landed out a few times, damaging it while rigging, who knows, but perhaps less stress to learn on the less expensive glider and it's all good for you in the end.
Jim

--
Dan, 5J

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:15:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

...and no experience with flaps with any of those except, maybe on of
the Pegase models.

No flaps on any Pegase that I'm aware of. 101D has carbon spars.

Pegase 90 is the last version and best, with all self-connecting
controls. No, I don't know how many were made or why the 90 should be a
successor to the 101, unless it was the 1990 model.

I had around 200 hours solo before I converted to a flapped glider
(ASW-20) and that seemed about right. I didn't have any problems with
flaps once I learnt to give the stick a good shove as I put in landing
flap on finals (or is the matching speed drop an ASW-20 feature?).
However I reckon it was another 35 hours before I was almost always in
the right flap setting without having to think about it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 12:51:38 AM UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:15:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

...and no experience with flaps with any of those except, maybe on of
the Pegase models.

No flaps on any Pegase that I'm aware of. 101D has carbon spars.

Pegase 90 is the last version and best, with all self-connecting
controls. No, I don't know how many were made or why the 90 should be a
successor to the 101, unless it was the 1990 model.

I had around 200 hours solo before I converted to a flapped glider
(ASW-20) and that seemed about right. I didn't have any problems with
flaps once I learnt to give the stick a good shove as I put in landing
flap on finals (or is the matching speed drop an ASW-20 feature?).
However I reckon it was another 35 hours before I was almost always in
the right flap setting without having to think about it.

I was 83 hours PIC when I was cleared for solo (and passengers) in a flapped glider -- an original Janus with reputation for bad handling, twitchy all-flying tail, and aero-towing on the belly hook.

Loved that glider!

I don't know about a "shove" on the stick, but before I got rated in it I practiced flying at 65 knots or so and moving the flap lever fairly quickly between -7 and landing flap and back repeatedly, while having no noticeable change in G loading or airspeed.