U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote:
Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson.

Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more.

It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it!

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Kirk
66

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there.
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

On Nov 22, 6:18*am, GM wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the oUS has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there. But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

Land costs

We lived on the side of a hill when we bought the winch from Fault
line Flyers in TX. We leased the 13 acres from a farmer in front of
the house. Would lob my spouse into the pattern at lunch in a vintage
2-33 w/nose hook into the pattern when the turkey vultures would
appear. He soared till sunset off an 800 ft vault, land and put his a/
c away by himself. Walk back up to the house in time for dinner.
Pretty bas One other comment about these winch addicts. Living in a
tourist town, we get pilots from the soaring world all over. Unless
they are super high time glider pilots, the Europeans win hands down
every week for working weak and low lift. 757 Capt Ingo Sturhan from
Deutschland "got off" the winch launch half way down the runway and
half way up because he knew he flew through a thermal. Circled to
12,800 ft departed east for AZ and came home 4.5 hrs later. Amazing.

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne wrote:

That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.



OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the

earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd

wager.



Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel

cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!



Re Numbers:

Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt

wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy

grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals

$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get

with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the

1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.

Karen Henderson.

Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Kirk

66

This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.

On Nov 22, 7:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne wrote:

That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the

earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd

wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel

cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!

Re Numbers:

Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt

wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy

grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals

$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get

with *the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the

1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.

Karen Henderson.

Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. *Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. *If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. *A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. *You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified
procedures not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation. More
the guys invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so
it wouldn't slam down during takeoff. No the geniuses are trying to
come up with some kind of fall away stand for one wing in the absence
of a runner. Problem so far is, it falls away in a crosswind before
slack is even taken up.Two wing stands, one on each wing, was deemed
not safe. We also do a slow 1-2-3 start to raise a wing since reading
your research. Thank you. Karen

I drove a Pawnee yesterday (10 tows) and it is a LOT more fun than driving a
winch, which I haven't done in over 10 years. From the glider end of the
rope, however, I'd *much* rather be connected to a winch or truck (runway
length permitting, of course).


"GM" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the
program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little
UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen,
the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs
use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they
were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has
too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make
it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St
Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700'
just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both
ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too!
If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than
a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do
not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs
reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses
winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to
high fuel cost over there.
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:00:21 -0800, Karen wrote:

Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified procedures
not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation.

Rewrite that to "We won't do a winch launch without a wing runner in ANY
circumstances". Please!

More the guys
invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so it wouldn't
slam down during takeoff.

Why? A tail-dragger's tail never slams down (after all it's already on
the ground) but, on a winch launch, some gliders can snap-rotate on lift-
off if you don't know what you're doing. I know this applies to Libelles
and Ka-8s, but there are probably others that do it too. Fast rotation
rotation at lift-off is dangerous and its prevention is one of the things
that the recent UK winch launch safety campaign emphasized.

As for nose-wheel gliders, the only type we ever hold the tail down for
is the DG-500/505. If you don't have fingers on the top of its fin to
keep the tail-wheel on the ground, it WILL slam its tail down as the
winch gets all-out.

This doesn't happen with the other two-seat nose-sitters I've flown:
ASK-13, ASK-21, Grob G-103 Acro and Puchacz. In fact these do the
opposite: you may need a bit of back stick to pick the nose up and get
the glider nicely balanced on the main wheel before it lifts off.

I think I know what I'm talking about he the number of aero tows I do
a year can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand. All the rest
are winched.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

A good many years ago I did a careful analysis of hours flown against
launch costs in the UK. It came ouit that the lowest lauch cost per hour
flown was found at the most expensive all aerotow sites because the soared
more often. Haven't repeated it recently but I'd be surprised if it's
changed.

At 13:58 22 November 2012, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote:
Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
1930's.
=
The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen
Henders=
on.

Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German
c=
lubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago
(th=
ey were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that
has=
too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never
make=
it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St
Lou=
is - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just
a
=
bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends
prev=
enting extending much more.

It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it!

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Kirk
66

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli

OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky!

Cheers!

Kirk
66