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Virtual Airline sues Real Airline



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 25th 04, 10:35 AM
Joseph Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Virtual Airline sues Real Airline

Let me start by saying that I have no affiliation nor with Jetstar
INTERNATIONAL nor with Jetstar AIRWAYS. I don't live in Australia nor in the
USA. I'm in Canada. And I like to see things subjectively, not single
sided. I always liked the truth - even when sometimes it wasn't for my
personal advantage. Many times I've but the public interest in favor of my
own personal interest. Having said this, I would like to make my
observations on this issue, which I first read on FlightSim.com.

To my understanding, 2 parties are in conflict because of the name
"Jetstar". However, one is a Simulator Virtual Airline based in the USA and
the other is a real discount transport carrier operating in Australia. One's
name is Jetstar International and the other is Jetstar Airways.

As we all know, there are many Virtual Airlines operating under the name of
real airlines, with their respective logos and colors. This is what makes
our simulation world realistic and more enjoyable.

The last thing that we want is for the real airlines to see the virtual
airlines as a threat. Remember what happened a couple of years ago with
American Airlines who threatened us of using their colors, name and logo for
the VA world? Then, when they saw that there was no threat, they calmed
down. We don't want to open up such conflict doors between real airlines
and VA.

This lawsuit between Jetstar International and Jetstar Airways will do more
damage than good to the VA community. If the lawsuit is valid, then
hundreds of REAL airlines should start suing VIRTUAL airlines for name and
logo Infringement. i.e. American Airlines Vs American Virtual Airlines OR
Northwest Airlines Vs Northwest Virtual Airlines. And shut everybody down.
And Guess what - if Jetstar International Wins the lawsuit (highly unlikely)
I can't imagine what the real airlines point of view would be towards
Virtual Airlines using their name.... Basically we would be considered as a
threat.

One more thing: The Chief Executive Officer of Jetstar International Virtual
Airlines wrote to us - to the sim community the following statement: "The
unprecedented traffic to our site nearly crashed it. This continues even
today increasing our bandwidth costs"

By going to www.Alexa.com in order to check www.jetstarairlines.com traffic,
I was pretty disappointed. It ranks 2,280,796 the on the web! AND
DECREASING. Which basically means the site doesn't get more than 50-60 users
a day. And getting lower - as per the trend. I can't see how site can crash
under this tiny load. Is it running on a home server with a dialup
connection under windows 3.0? Don't know but, But there's a say that says:
"Too much talk is like no talk"....

Anyways, my opinion is that Jetstar International should put the general
interest in front of personal interest-for-gain. This is what I think. VA
is no threat to Airlines and Airlines are no threat to VA. I forgot that we
are in America and anybody has the right to sue anybody for anything.
Fortunately, the justice system is just. The sad part is that lawyers are
SO hungry for money that many times they mislead their customers into
believing that they will win the case.

We soon find out that the only winners are the lawyers and the losers are
we - the general public - because some people decided to put their personal
interest in front of the public interest. Call it democracy - capitalism -
where everything is about an individual - egocentric - Confined in attitude
or interest to one's own needs or affairs. Sad.

Here is the Original "Press Release" as issued by the Virtual Airline:

PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

JetStar International Airlines Sues Qantas Airways Ltd.
for Copyright and Trademark Infringement

April 20, 2004
On Dec 1, 2003 Qantas Airways Ltd announced the launch of their new low cost
carrier named "Jetstar." http://Jetstar.com/ and http://Jetstar.com.au/
Unfortunately for Qantas, the name JetStar used in conjunction with the
airline industry was an already legally trademarked brand by JetStar
International Airlines, at http://www.jetstarairlines.com/.

Beginning at least four years ago, JetStar International Airlines, was the
first and only company ever to use the trademark "JetStar" in conjunction
with an airline or air carrier of any kind, and have enjoyed a peaceful and
productive time with their superior trademark and domain. Quoting JetStar's
CEO Gene Bordelon, "When I formed this virtual airline four years ago, I
went to great lengths naming and branding it so uniquely that the odds would
be remote in the extreme that it would ever be exactly copied,
unintentionally or coincidentally to avoid any copyright problems." He
continued by stating "It's unbelievable that Qantas could come up with the
same name, essentially the same logo design, and substantially the same
silver livery as ours by chance. Even our domain name clearly states who and
what we are. I knew when I named the airline 'JetStar' it along with our
signature livery would be a very powerful and recognizable trademark brand.
Qantas and their ad agency obviously also recognized this.

The website operated by JetStar International Airlines caters to the airline
simulation industry. JetStar Airlines has received many accolades for their
unique fleet and website design, and prior to the December 1 decision by
Qantas, JetStar's website was the highest and only return for 'JetStar
Airlines' on every general search engines such as Google.com, among others
for three years running.

Today, things are different. JetStar Airlines has been sidetracked by the
recent onslaught of thousands of unwanted requests for plane tickets from
the Qantas/Jetstar.au promotions. "It's really all about confusion in the
marketplace of which there is plenty." Recently Qantas offered 100,000 seats
for $29 each causing a stampede of millions of customers to their website.
Virgin Blue also joined in causing a price war. On the same day, JetStar
International received more than 100,000 unwanted visits to their website
and were flooded with email requests, including requests for the cheap
tickets from confused customers, resumes from potential employees, aircraft
and aircraft parts suppliers and even car rental agencies requests for
business. The unprecedented traffic to our site nearly crashed it. This
continues even today increasing our bandwidth costs. The confusion continues
with several virtual Jetstar copies now online and one even officially
sanctioned by Qantas!

"We tried to call their attention to this problem several times, but their
response is nothing short of reckless because they don't seem to mind
trampling on other's intellectual property rights even though Qantas asks
you to respect their rights on their terms of use pages located on their
websites. Qantas' cavalier attitude left us no choice but to take the matter
to court to protect our intellectual property," says Bordelon.

The lawsuit filed in United States District Court lists causes of actions
as, Copyright Infringement, Trademark Infringement, Illegal Cybersquatting,
Conversion and Lanham Act Unfair Competition.

Qantas operates several routes to the United States and has significant
involvement in the United States travel and transportation industry,
offering a wide range of services to both American citizens and other
citizens worldwide.

# # #

cc:
rec.aviation.simulators newsgroup
Quantas
Jetstar Airways
Jetstar International


Ads
  #2  
Old April 25th 04, 01:05 PM
Al Denelsbeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The answer is simple, really. Virtual Jetstar only has to have one of
their pilots pile it in with a spectacular crash killings hundreds of
virtual passengers, then they can scramble to change their name to avoid
losing business by association with it. Just like every other airline.

;-)

But in all seriousness, I agree with you. I understand the VA's
problems and sympathize with them, but there are countless solutions to
this all. One of the simplest is to offer Qantas' JetStar a good rate for a
banner ad on the VA site, with a *simple change to the homepage* explaining
that no, this is a simulation site only, if you're looking to book a
flight, please use this link.

This actually brings revenue into the VA pocket, and if priced
accordingly covers all bandwidth issues, real or imagined. No domain
issues, no losses, and increased traffic to everybody. What's to lose?

There's also no reason for a lawsuit. The VA can simply reply to all
mail with any number of fun messages, basically telling the potential
customer (for the real airline) that they've been screwed over by an
elaborate hoax. Or they can put in a script requesting credit card info.
The real airline will lose no time whatsoever in seeing useful ways to
remedy the situation. And even better, the attornies go suck wind ;-).

Just gotta be creative,,,


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain



"Joseph Brown" wrote in
s.com:

Let me start by saying that I have no affiliation nor with Jetstar
INTERNATIONAL nor with Jetstar AIRWAYS. I don't live in Australia nor
in the USA. I'm in Canada. And I like to see things subjectively, not
single sided. I always liked the truth - even when sometimes it
wasn't for my personal advantage. Many times I've but the public
interest in favor of my own personal interest. Having said this, I
would like to make my observations on this issue, which I first read
on FlightSim.com.

To my understanding, 2 parties are in conflict because of the name
"Jetstar". However, one is a Simulator Virtual Airline based in the
USA and the other is a real discount transport carrier operating in
Australia. One's name is Jetstar International and the other is
Jetstar Airways.

As we all know, there are many Virtual Airlines operating under the
name of real airlines, with their respective logos and colors. This
is what makes our simulation world realistic and more enjoyable.

The last thing that we want is for the real airlines to see the
virtual airlines as a threat. Remember what happened a couple of
years ago with American Airlines who threatened us of using their
colors, name and logo for the VA world? Then, when they saw that
there was no threat, they calmed down. We don't want to open up such
conflict doors between real airlines and VA.

This lawsuit between Jetstar International and Jetstar Airways will do
more damage than good to the VA community. If the lawsuit is valid,
then hundreds of REAL airlines should start suing VIRTUAL airlines for
name and logo Infringement. i.e. American Airlines Vs American Virtual
Airlines OR Northwest Airlines Vs Northwest Virtual Airlines. And shut
everybody down. And Guess what - if Jetstar International Wins the
lawsuit (highly unlikely) I can't imagine what the real airlines point
of view would be towards Virtual Airlines using their name....
Basically we would be considered as a threat.

One more thing: The Chief Executive Officer of Jetstar International
Virtual Airlines wrote to us - to the sim community the following
statement: "The unprecedented traffic to our site nearly crashed it.
This continues even today increasing our bandwidth costs"

By going to www.Alexa.com in order to check www.jetstarairlines.com
traffic, I was pretty disappointed. It ranks 2,280,796 the on the web!
AND DECREASING. Which basically means the site doesn't get more than
50-60 users a day. And getting lower - as per the trend. I can't see
how site can crash under this tiny load. Is it running on a home
server with a dialup connection under windows 3.0? Don't know but,
But there's a say that says: "Too much talk is like no talk"....

Anyways, my opinion is that Jetstar International should put the
general interest in front of personal interest-for-gain. This is what
I think. VA is no threat to Airlines and Airlines are no threat to VA.
I forgot that we are in America and anybody has the right to sue
anybody for anything. Fortunately, the justice system is just. The
sad part is that lawyers are SO hungry for money that many times they
mislead their customers into believing that they will win the case.

We soon find out that the only winners are the lawyers and the losers
are we - the general public - because some people decided to put their
personal interest in front of the public interest. Call it democracy
- capitalism - where everything is about an individual - egocentric -
Confined in attitude or interest to one's own needs or affairs. Sad.

Here is the Original "Press Release" as issued by the Virtual Airline:

PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

JetStar International Airlines Sues Qantas Airways Ltd.
for Copyright and Trademark Infringement

April 20, 2004
On Dec 1, 2003 Qantas Airways Ltd announced the launch of their new
low cost carrier named "Jetstar." http://Jetstar.com/ and
http://Jetstar.com.au/ Unfortunately for Qantas, the name JetStar used
in conjunction with the airline industry was an already legally
trademarked brand by JetStar International Airlines, at
http://www.jetstarairlines.com/.

Beginning at least four years ago, JetStar International Airlines, was
the first and only company ever to use the trademark "JetStar" in
conjunction with an airline or air carrier of any kind, and have
enjoyed a peaceful and productive time with their superior trademark
and domain. Quoting JetStar's CEO Gene Bordelon, "When I formed this
virtual airline four years ago, I went to great lengths naming and
branding it so uniquely that the odds would be remote in the extreme
that it would ever be exactly copied, unintentionally or
coincidentally to avoid any copyright problems." He continued by
stating "It's unbelievable that Qantas could come up with the same
name, essentially the same logo design, and substantially the same
silver livery as ours by chance. Even our domain name clearly states
who and what we are. I knew when I named the airline 'JetStar' it
along with our signature livery would be a very powerful and
recognizable trademark brand. Qantas and their ad agency obviously
also recognized this.

The website operated by JetStar International Airlines caters to the
airline simulation industry. JetStar Airlines has received many
accolades for their unique fleet and website design, and prior to the
December 1 decision by Qantas, JetStar's website was the highest and
only return for 'JetStar Airlines' on every general search engines
such as Google.com, among others for three years running.

Today, things are different. JetStar Airlines has been sidetracked by
the recent onslaught of thousands of unwanted requests for plane
tickets from the Qantas/Jetstar.au promotions. "It's really all about
confusion in the marketplace of which there is plenty." Recently
Qantas offered 100,000 seats for $29 each causing a stampede of
millions of customers to their website. Virgin Blue also joined in
causing a price war. On the same day, JetStar International received
more than 100,000 unwanted visits to their website and were flooded
with email requests, including requests for the cheap tickets from
confused customers, resumes from potential employees, aircraft and
aircraft parts suppliers and even car rental agencies requests for
business. The unprecedented traffic to our site nearly crashed it.
This continues even today increasing our bandwidth costs. The
confusion continues with several virtual Jetstar copies now online and
one even officially sanctioned by Qantas!

"We tried to call their attention to this problem several times, but
their response is nothing short of reckless because they don't seem to
mind trampling on other's intellectual property rights even though
Qantas asks you to respect their rights on their terms of use pages
located on their websites. Qantas' cavalier attitude left us no choice
but to take the matter to court to protect our intellectual property,"
says Bordelon.

The lawsuit filed in United States District Court lists causes of
actions as, Copyright Infringement, Trademark Infringement, Illegal
Cybersquatting, Conversion and Lanham Act Unfair Competition.

Qantas operates several routes to the United States and has
significant involvement in the United States travel and transportation
industry, offering a wide range of services to both American citizens
and other citizens worldwide.

# # #

cc:
rec.aviation.simulators newsgroup
Quantas
Jetstar Airways
Jetstar International


  #3  
Old April 25th 04, 05:13 PM
Bill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Another frivoulous lawsuite tying up the courts.
I will know which VA to saty clear of
Bill


  #4  
Old April 25th 04, 09:09 PM
Joseph Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You most certainly have a right to your opinion,
but I don't believe this forum was the place to give it.


You issued a press release here. You linked your press release here.
The press release appears to be on top of this page. Many users also
responded to you initial release. I don't understand why here its not
the place to see another point of view. Furthermore, other opinions may
help you in your defense in being prepared what the other side may bring
up in court.

The name JetStar is intellectual property and has a copyright.


I hear you. I agree. Jetstar International is not Jetstar Airways. Just
open the phonebook and compare how many companies have the same "first"
name, which offer different services. In your case International, in
their case Airways. In their case they are in Australia, in yours, in
the USA, in your case you offer Virtual Entertainment, in their case
they offer Air Transportation.

Qantas stole our logo, our name, even our livery,


They use jet* you use jet*star. And the differences are endless. I also
compared jet* airplanes Vs your jet*star paintings and I couldnąt find
how you came to the conclusion that they are similar. Unless if they
changed them recently.

we went to great lengths to find a name that
wasn't associated with any other airline. It was unique.


I don't blame you on that. I totally believe you that you found a unique
name with unique colors with a unique name. And that's no easy task.
As a matter of fact, I like better YOUR colors/name than the carrier's
one. But that's my personal preference. And has no legal or other value.

You happened to check out our hits and concluded
that we get very few hits a day


Yes, in response to your [false] statements that you got 100000 visits!
(not hits) which may translate in almost a million hits. I didn't see
that in your stats. What I saw is a website with tiny decreasing
traffic - Even after you announced it on Flightsim. I'm not saying that
it's bad to have low traffic of high traffic. I'm just verifying your
statement about "the unprecedented traffic to our site nearly crashed it
- This continues even today increasing our bandwidth costs". I don't
know, but this and only statement should raise serious credibility
questions.

our site nearly crashed because of the multitide of hits,
nearly 100,000. This continues even today


.... and you still insist on that! Even when past historical data on
Alexa doesn't reflect that. Anyways - not my business, but in order to
prove it, only certified server logs from the web hosting service and
associated costs [damages] would do it.

How in the world would a lawsuit be of damage to the VA community?


It's simple. Its called "threat". In America where everybody sues
everybody for anything [thanks to hungry lawyers misleading their
customers - for cash - which is another case of egocentrism] anything
can happen. What tells us that American Virtual Airlines won't sue
American Airlines? [even if American VA is wrong]? So before this
happens, the real airlines, I'm pretty sure, may take action. Would they
be right if they do? Or let me rephrase: "Would American Airlines be
wrong to protect their colors/name from Virtual Airlines?"

We have the most unique logo


I compared both yours and theirs. The only logo in common that I saw
was the star (*). The star is used by many companies worldwide.
Echo*star, Jet*, Jet*star, and so on. Are you trying to say that the
star (*) is the problem?

Should your country not be recognized as legitimate
just because it is tiny in comparison to the United States? I think not.


When you compare Apples with Apples (aka VA vs VA) its ok to compare.
However, when you compare Apples with Oranges (aka VA vs Airlines) then
the problems may start. Back to population. I never said that your
website with 50 users/day shouldnąt be recognized as a website or a
company even though Jetstar airways site gets 49 times your traffic
(according to alexa) which amounts to approx 2760 visitors/day. Nothing
to do with. The initial argument is the "logo/name issue". Don't open
up doors with traffic, damages, resumes, e-mail, server crashes, etc.
If you do - then consider that "too much talk backfires" - which rest
assured, will be used against you to raise credibility questions. If
you think that your name/logo was violated - then stick to that and only
to that. Lawyer's aren't sleeping. They are in to make money.

we were flooded [..]
aircraft and aircraft parts suppliers and
even car rental agencies requests for business.


Should I comment on the above statement? Or not? If this holds true
then it's a matter of airline safety and the FAA / NTSB should seriously
investigate into this. What assures me that a terrorist tomorrow won't
open up a website under "AirForce One VA airlines" and the suppliers
won't send aircraft parts to them? Your statement is scares me. But
since I doubt its' true - it raises again more credibility questions.

Furthermore, how the heck the potential customers, employees, aircraft
suppliers got to your site. When a search for "Jetstar" is entered,
Jetstar Airlines is first Followed by Jetstar Aviation off the
Netherlands, followed by Jetstar Games, Followed by Jetstar Reggae
Distributor. I don't know but if your lawyer told you to say this - he
sees you as a big bill of cash. Don't think that Qantas will just sit
down and listen to your lawyer without saying a word. They are experts
in legal matters; they are getting sued almost on a daily basis. They
are elite "legal" players.

Anyways - I won't argue more, I hope that with my "different" point of
view I gave you some ammunition as what you may expect. I'm pretty
shure that Qantas will have their legal team do a lot more research than
I did. But I don't want you to go in just to surprise yourself. So in
a way, I think I helped you. Constructive statements help you.
Statements like: "Go get em' Gene, we're behind you 1000%" do nothing to
prepare you case. Come and tell us if these guys will be 1000% behind
you tomorrow at court. Or what they did to prepare your case. Guess
what. I helped you more than anybody else here. In a sense that I didn't
tell you what you wanted to hear. I told you what the other party may
consider at throwing on you. It would be easier for me to spend these
30 minutes in writing this post to watch TV. Or say: "Go, you're the
one, we're behind you 3000%" Talk is cheap. But cheap talk doesn't help
your case. If I spend 30 minutes to write what I wrote, it means
something. It mans that you may be right about the name issue, but you
have a lot more statements that work seriously against your credibility.
And believe me, if I were against you - I wouldn't have told them to
you in the first place.

It is also quite evident that you are seeing things
"subjectively" rather than "objectively.


If this is the impression I gave you, then disregard everything. I take
ALL my words back. And I say:

"Go get em' Gene, we're behind you 1000%"

I forgot to put the word NOT in front of subjectively. But my
description of it made it clear as what I meant. Can this also tell me
that you see things the way that you want them to see?

Qantas (it would have been nice if you had gotten the spelling of

this airline correct)

No but seriously, is this the point? Where else I did a typo or a
grammar mistake?

I wish you luck in what you do. And let's work as a VA comminity to make
this hobby as enjoyable as much.

If you propose to wax eloquent, it would
behoove you to do it with some credibility.


If this is the impression I gave you, then I apologize. Too bad the
30-45 mins I spend here. Truth is not nice sometimes - but the justice
system is there for that. Lawyers aren't. [that's the problem].

Sorry....
  #5  
Old April 25th 04, 09:10 PM
Joseph Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Initial post by: tf51d

I have to agree with Trexa. Regardless of who's right or wrong, Jetstar
International is creating a very dangerous situation not just for the VA
airlines, but also the whole flightsim community itself. Not only can
the airlines start going after the VA airlines, (Which is exactly what
they will do) they may also go after all the painted liveries in the
various flight sim libraries like avsim or flightsim.com. American
Airlines didn't just go after the VA airlines, they also went after the
repaints too. Remember how long you couldn't find an AA livery on
flightsim.com. I don't know if JIA thought of all the repercussions of
this action, but it could spell catastrophe to the whole flightsim
community, and could also spill over to other communities like the
Trainsim community. I think JIA needs to rethink this course of action.
If QANTAS is guilty of copyright infringement, then every flight sim
repainter of commercial airliners is guilty of the same.
 




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