Missing Engine Log Book

Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.



Denny wrote:
Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
learn...

denny

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.

(???) IIUC, they are merely attempting to recreate the logs from INVOCIES,
not from shop records (copies of original work).

Also, the OP is in SOuth Africa (?) -- how do THEIR laws figure in?

Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
"recreated log".

Are the invoices even close to the level of detail as shop records?

Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?

That'd work!

"Newps" wrote in message
...
Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.


Which is what the OP was asking --- how much would they discount the value.

Hmmm, lots of opinions...
In spite of contrary opinions from folks in the group, until the engine
is found to be airworthy I will continue to maintain that engine has
core value only... He can't prove that the connecting rod numbers are
correct, that the bearing numbers are correct, that the internal bolts
were correctly torqued, and on, and on - and there is no signature
attesting that the field repairs (overhaul) done meets the
manufacturer's specs (it takes more than the data plate on the case to
be a certified airworthy engine)...
Now, some of our august mechanic members are making noises like they
would be willing to sign their license # that the engine is
airworthy... But, I wonder if they actually would if it was in their
shop??? The bottom line is that the engine has to be opened up, part
numbers verified, parts measured for manufacturers tolerances, AD's
verified, and then reassembled, and someone has to put his professional
license on the line by signing a log of the work done and declaring the
engine airworthy... Probably what Jim/Newps, maybe $3000 for labor,
plus gaskets? Not a big deal, but it has to be done... If I were
considering buying the plane, the purchase offer would include that
work as a contingency... And I haven't seen anything about the prop
log?

Just remember Jack, the old adage - fall in love and you get screwed in
the end...

denny

denny

Denny wrote:
Hmmm, lots of opinions...
In spite of contrary opinions from folks in the group, until the engine
is found to be airworthy I will continue to maintain that engine has
core value only... He can't prove that the connecting rod numbers are
correct, that the bearing numbers are correct, that the internal bolts
were correctly torqued, and on, and on -

He couldn't prove that with the log book either.

If he can get the appropriate records from the overhaul shop
(the form formerly known as the yellow tag) and can verify
the mainenance since, then there's no real airworthiness
problem (either in actuality or in the FAA paperwork realm).

Now, some of our august mechanic members are making noises like they
would be willing to sign their license # that the engine is
airworthy...

Actually, we were talking about the shop that did the annual providing
a new copy of the statement that on such and such a data... found
airworthy.

If, on the other hand, someone brought an engine into a shop, never
before seen, no logs... then yes, the AI has a bigger task on his
hands. First, the engine isn't airworthy without an annual inspection,
so he has to do that. I don't see (from that alone) any necessity to
do any more than the normal tests. No need (for just that) to tear
down the engine.

But then we hit the second snag. AD's. He also has to be able to sign
off that they are all complete and HOW they were performed. [We tend
to forget that second point.] Without logs, there is a good chance
that one of THOSE may require a teardown. And you are correct, the
cost of that may likely (depending upon engine and AD's) turn out to be
the cost of a full overhaul.

I think the problem many of us had with your original post was the use
of the word "CERTIFIED" instead of "airworthy." The engine is certified
if it has the correct data plate on it. I can find an old IO-360
rusting away in the back yard of a house I bought. Is it certified?
Sure, if the data plate is still attached. Is it airworthy? Almost
certainly not, neither from a legal nor mechanical standpoint.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Is this really true?

Is what really true?

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Depends. The real value is the airframe log. I wouldn't really care
much about the engine or prop log.



Matt Barrow wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message
...

Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.



Which is what the OP was asking --- how much would they discount the value.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.

(???) IIUC, they are merely attempting to recreate the logs from INVOCIES,
not from shop records (copies of original work).

Also, the OP is in SOuth Africa (?) -- how do THEIR laws figure in?

Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
"recreated log".

Are the invoices even close to the level of detail as shop records?

Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?

That'd work!


IT WOULD NOT WORK FOR ME!

IMHO no log means no value beyond core and even that is a gamble. A seller
will have lots of arguments as to why more value should be applied but a
buyer can afford to be more discriminating. If it was so easy to rebuild
the logs the existing seller would have done it. You may not get the same
service, from the rebuilder who issued the original repair invoice, that the
original owner would have a right to expect, and in fact the rebuilder may
be unable or unwilling to provide any information to subsequent owners.

IMHO recreated logs are only as good as the PROVABLE data used to recreate
them. Recreated or incomplete or no logs may be legal for private use but I
would suspect they could be a real problem if the owner wished to place the
aircraft in commercial service and would certainly impact resale value.

I would submit that the condition of log books is a clear reflection of the
owners regard for the maintenance process and will probably be indicative of
the quality of the other maintenance that the aircraft has or has not
received. Poor or missing engine logs would make me question the accuracy
of any other logs. Inconvenient paperwork is often conveniently lost

I know of several pilots who no longer log time in their personal pilot logs
because "if it doesn't go in my log, it doesn't go in the aircraft log."

There is no shortage of sellers or their mechanics who are willing to pencil
whip (or forge or misrepresent) paperwork for an aircraft they are selling.
It is the job of the buyer to perform the proper due diligence to determine
the accuracy of any paperwork and to determine the aircraft's fitness for
service and legal airworthiness.

Any OPINIONS (including mine) of aircraft value are irrelevant, as the only
opinion that matters is that of the buyer. However, the opinion of that
buyer will not necessarily extend to any future prospective buyers at the
time of future resale.

Just my .02

What could the FSDO possibly know? Ask three inspectors there and get
three different answers