A disturbing statistic

I got the information second-hand from the President of
Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the
| river, not near the upwind shore.
|
| Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that
determination?
|
| --Gary
|
| "Gary Drescher" wrote in
message
| . ..
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | ...
| | It is still knots faster than he should have been to
| make
| | the turn.
| |
| | Probably. But even at that airspeed (112 mph), if
they'd
| turned with a
| | 60-degree bank, they'd have had room to spare even if
the
| crosswind
| | component had been as high as 30 knots (the turn
diameter
| would have been
| | 975', and the turn would have taken 10 seconds, adding
| 500' of drift; the
| | river is 2000' wide).
| |
| | --Gary
| |
| | The true airspeed is what controls the radius,
| | along with the bank angle. He had a quartering
headwind
| and
| | the turn was such that it was a nearly direct
tailwind.
| | Being aware of the required turn and the speed and
wind
| | [which should have been on display in the glass
panel]
| both
| | pilots screwed up IMHO.
| |
| |
| | "Newps" wrote in message
| | . ..
| | |
| | |
| | | Jim Macklin wrote:
| | | The point is that turn radius is directly
related to
| | speed.
| | | It is possible to fly a 300 King Air at a slower
| speed
| | than
| | | Lidle was flying his SR20
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | | The reports say his ground speed was 112 mph.
That's
| | Cessna 150 territory.
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the
| river, not near the upwind shore.
|
| Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that
| determination?

I got the information second-hand from the President of
Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.

Did he mention where the information came from?

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
m...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the
| river, not near the upwind shore.
|
| Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that
| determination?

I got the information second-hand from the President of
Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.


Did he mention where the information came from?

That brings to mind a question I've had about panel-mount GPSs. Sorry
for the thread-creep.

All the handheld GPSs I've seen have a "recording" feature that allows
you to see where you've been. I've never seen that in any panel-mount,
but I wonder whether there's a hidden feature that is not accessible
from the normal user interface. Seems like it would be valuable for
accident investigation.

If I were the NTSB, I'd recommend this feature be added, if it doesn't
already exist.

In case there's a portable GPS in an accident aircraft, does the NTSB
extract the position history as part of its investigation?

Dave

Dan Luke wrote:

Or ask yourself: how many celebrities can you name who have been killed in
plane crashes vs. the number kiled in car crashes? In the former, quite a
few; in the latter, just a couple.

Now ask yourself: how much time do celebrities spend travelling in airplanes
vs. the time spent in cars?


Light aircraft? Not very many.

Biz jets? Quite a few.

Peter wrote:
In addition to the large # of replies here, there is one huge factor
to consider:

When driving, and much more so when riding a motorbike, you are at the
mercy of other drivers.

If cars were spread out like airplanes are, then the advantage driving
safety enjoys over light aircraft would be far greater than it is.

I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might
relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had just
talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the
tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use of
the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President knew
this was not a question during the conversation.

I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video
surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB final
report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a
safer flight before the final report is issued.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| "Gary Drescher" wrote in
message
| . ..
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | ...
| | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of
the
| | river, not near the upwind shore.
| |
| | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make
that
| | determination?
|
| I got the information second-hand from the President of
| Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.
|
| Did he mention where the information came from?
|
| --Gary
|
|

If the system included a "black box" that data could be
saved, but after a crash and fire and likely fractures
chips, recovery of such data is not likely.


"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
| Gary Drescher wrote:
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote in message
| ...
|
| "Gary Drescher" wrote in
message
| m...
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | ...
| | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of
the
| | river, not near the upwind shore.
| |
| | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make
that
| | determination?
|
| I got the information second-hand from the President of
| Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.
|
|
| Did he mention where the information came from?
|
| That brings to mind a question I've had about panel-mount
GPSs. Sorry
| for the thread-creep.
|
| All the handheld GPSs I've seen have a "recording" feature
that allows
| you to see where you've been. I've never seen that in any
panel-mount,
| but I wonder whether there's a hidden feature that is not
accessible
| from the normal user interface. Seems like it would be
valuable for
| accident investigation.
|
| If I were the NTSB, I'd recommend this feature be added,
if it doesn't
| already exist.
|
| In case there's a portable GPS in an accident aircraft,
does the NTSB
| extract the position history as part of its investigation?
|
| Dave

Local pilots that do that trip know not to go up the East river unless
they've already talked to LGA tower and know they are cleared through at
the other end. The river isn't that wide and turning a 180 is a
challenge for most pilots in todays GA planes.

If you find yourself in that situation it would make more sense to head
over to the Manhattan side and turn towards Long Island City. There are
a lot fewer high buildings over there. Worst case you bust LGA's
airspace on the East side, it beats being dead.

Robert

Jim Macklin wrote:
I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might
relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had just
talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the
tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use of
the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President knew
this was not a question during the conversation.

I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video
surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB final
report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a
safer flight before the final report is issued.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| "Gary Drescher" wrote in
message
| . ..
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | ...
| | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of
the
| | river, not near the upwind shore.
| |
| | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make
that
| | determination?
|
| I got the information second-hand from the President of
| Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.
|
| Did he mention where the information came from?
|
| --Gary
|
|

Nothing beats local knowledge. Being a high time instructor
from Florida does not qualify that instructor to teach
glacier flying. Likewise, a CFI from Atlanta does not have
experience with NYC.

ATC is not uniform in all regions. The air may be the same
everywhere, but it behaves differently. Here in Kansas and
Oklahoma, student pilots are regularly soloed with winds as
high as 25 knots. But in many places, 15 knot winds cause
panic with the CFIs.

Every tower publishes local procedures and is very happy to
speak with any pilot at any time. I have not flown VFR in
the NYC area, all my trips have been in a King Air or
Beechjet. But if I was VFR, I'd have the terminal chart, I
would call the local tower and I'd seek a local instructor.

If I was flying a seaplane up the East River, I might land
and turn on the water. I certainly don't consider myself
qualified to fly into every airport without "study" of local
procedures. I have flown singles and light twins, as well
as the King Air into STL, ATL, ORD and several other busy
airports single-pilot. IFR is a piece of cake until you
land, even from the higher cockpit of a King Air, taxiing at
ATL or ORD is the difficult procedure. But landing or
taking off from many airports is just difficult to do.
Leadville is obvious, but Tahoe, Aspen, AngelFire don't
look hard.

Just heard a radio news report, the feds (NTSB?) are citing
stiff wind and pilot error.




"Robert Chambers" wrote in
message . ..
| Local pilots that do that trip know not to go up the East
river unless
| they've already talked to LGA tower and know they are
cleared through at
| the other end. The river isn't that wide and turning a
180 is a
| challenge for most pilots in todays GA planes.
|
| If you find yourself in that situation it would make more
sense to head
| over to the Manhattan side and turn towards Long Island
City. There are
| a lot fewer high buildings over there. Worst case you
bust LGA's
| airspace on the East side, it beats being dead.
|
| Robert
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might
| relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had
just
| talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the
| tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use
of
| the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President
knew
| this was not a question during the conversation.
|
| I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video
| surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB
final
| report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a
| safer flight before the final report is issued.
|
|
| "Gary Drescher" wrote in
message
| . ..
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | ...
| | "Gary Drescher" wrote in
| message
| | . ..
| | | "Jim Macklin"

| wrote
| | in message
| | | ...
| | | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle
of
| the
| | | river, not near the upwind shore.
| | |
| | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to
make
| that
| | | determination?
| |
| | I got the information second-hand from the President
of
| | Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca.
| |
| | Did he mention where the information came from?
| |
| | --Gary
| |
| |
|
|

"Sam Spade" wrote:

Or ask yourself: how many celebrities can you name who have been killed
in plane crashes vs. the number kiled in car crashes? In the former,
quite a few; in the latter, just a couple.

Now ask yourself: how much time do celebrities spend travelling in
airplanes vs. the time spent in cars?


Light aircraft? Not very many.

Cory Lidle, Scott Crossfield, Game show host Peter Tomarken, vocalist
Aaliyah, Mel Carnahan, Tony Lee Bettenhausen Jr., JFK Jr., John Denver,
baseball player Jim Hardin, Art Scholl, Hale Boggs, Buddy Holly, Audie
Murphy, Rocky Marciano, Jim "Gentleman" Reeves, Patsy Cline, Buddy Clark,
Will Rogers & Wiley Post... and that's not including helicopters. Not many?

Biz jets? Quite a few.


--
Dan
C172RG at BFM