Electric locomotion will replace internal combustion

Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:04Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:30Â*pm, wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. Â*I think that's
OP's original point.

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. Â*More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. Â*We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

I'm not holding my breath though. Â*Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. Â*It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have been around for 210 years and there is nothing on horizon
that will provide anywhere near the energy density required to power
something like a big rig truck, a farm tractor, construction machinery,
airplanes, a train, or a boat of any size.

Even pure electric cars are not practical as a replacement for an ICE car
in other than very limited conditions.

--
Jim Pennino

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- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Yes, you usually are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

Conventional gasoline: 34.8 MJ/L 43 MJ/kg

100LL: 44 MJ/kg 32 MJ/L

Jet A 43 MJ/kg 33 MJ/L

Lithium ion nanowire battery: 2.54 MJ/kg (experimental, bleeding edge)

Supercapacitor: .01 MJ/kg Â*(experimental, bleeding edge)

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, and let's examine the source of this data.

LOL! Some kid named Scott on Wikipedia. Ya gotta stop
believing everything you read on Wikipedia. On top of that,
this is outdated technology.

Pick any site you want and you will find the numbers are essentially the
same.

The energy density numbers will vary around a couple of percent depending
on the method used to get them, but they will not change by an order of
magnitude, which is what is needed for batteries, or three orders of
magnitude which you would need for supercapacitors.

And no, lithium ion nanowire batteries are bleeding edge technology and
don't exist outside of a lab.

Supercapacitors powering automobiles is a joke.

If you have some real source, i.e. a real company or university, of better
battery technology, let's see it.

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 17, 6:00*pm, wrote:

No one other than a rich enviro-whinner is going to buy a $41,000 car that
can only go 40 miles.

"They’ve outfitted a Saturn Sky with electronic components that allows
the car to travel 150 miles on one battery charge that costs as much
as a single gallon of gasoline."

http://www.wlwt.com/r/17226175/detail.html

---
Mark

On Sep 17, 7:24*pm, wrote:

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, I can respect that. It'll take a little digging to determine
why everyone now seems to be hitting the 150mile range.

If you're interested in reading
more in depth about Graphene, the one molecule thick wafer
of honey-combed carbon, somewhere there's an explanation
of it's ultracapacitor applications that would antiquate anything
we've see thus far.

---
Mark

On Sep 17, 11:28*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

--
Jim Pennino

"It boosts the electrification of larger heavy-duty vehicles."

http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/1067.html

---
Mark

On Sep 18, 9:30*am, Mark wrote:
On Sep 17, 4:44*pm, george wrote:

On Sep 18, 3:28*am, wrote: Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

One of those 'unfortunate facts' that the dreamers cannot get their
heads around

Precluding the law of diminishing returns, just off-hand
I'd think a truck-sized electric motor would fix that.
(along with a commensurate power source) *Ever seen
electric drag-strip cars? *The IC powered cars cannot
even come close. The tork is just too great.

What do truckers rely on? *Tork.

The word is torque and a 40 ton load that has to be delivered a
thousand mile away is going to require the internal combustion engine

In article ,
(Edward A. Falk) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. I think that's
OP's original point.

Presumably, those people are smoking something other than tobacco!



And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Electric vehicles are simply not practical, except for specialized uses,
where short range and duration are not problems.

This excludes aircraft, meaningful automobile use, for starters.


Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

'tain't going to happen!


I'm not holding my breath though. Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have to carry both fuel and oxidizer, like a rocket system
does. If an ICE vehicle had to carry its own air supply, its propellant
weight would expand by 15 times!

On Sep 17, 8:37*pm, george wrote:
On Sep 18, 9:30*am, Mark wrote:



On Sep 17, 4:44*pm, george wrote:

On Sep 18, 3:28*am, wrote: Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

In article
,
Mark wrote:

On Sep 17, 7:24*pm, wrote:

Pie in the sky press releases don't count, only lab results.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, I can respect that. It'll take a little digging to determine
why everyone now seems to be hitting the 150mile range.

If you're interested in reading
more in depth about Graphene, the one molecule thick wafer
of honey-combed carbon, somewhere there's an explanation
of it's ultracapacitor applications that would antiquate anything
we've see thus far.

---
Mark

How about the balonium/unobtaium ion battery that recharges in five
minutes? That's the one that electric vehicle advocates are counting on!

On Sep 17, 9:31*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
(Edward A. Falk) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Mark wrote:
In the year 2055, you will be arrested and prosecuted
for operating an internal combustion engine in the
United States of America. (Chimerica)

Then everyone starves when the big rig trucks stop food distribution.

Presumably, by then electric vehicles will be practical. *I think that's
OP's original point.

Presumably, those people are smoking something other than tobacco!

Within 24 months, you're going to see more electric cars come
out of the woodwork than you can shake a stick at. There are
many, many aviators excited and working on this too. Grants
are being handed out. Endowments are being granted. 2.4 Billion
dollars, that's with a B...last year alone!

And a good point it is -- if we achieve a) cheap, clean electricity
(e.g. fusion, solar) and b) practical batteries, then we'll see incredible
changes in air quality, the economy, and even world politics.

I would guess that the use of internal combusion engines will not actually
be outlawed. *More likely, people who want to operate them (e.g. antiques
collectors) will simply pay a pollution tax when they buy the fuel.

Electric vehicles are simply not practical, except for specialized uses,
where short range and duration are not problems.

We're already up to 150miles on a charge, and this whole
thing is just getting ramped up. Give it 2 years and you'll
change your mind.

This excludes aircraft, meaningful automobile use, for starters.

Electric planes are flying and we've just scratched the surface
of this new technology. Cars are coming on the market this
year. Next year in quantity, and are being mass produced
right now in the United States by Korean parent companies.

Bear in mind that if 99% of the vehicles switch to electric, then the
few ICEs that remain won't be generating enough pollution to actually
worry about. *We might even see a relaxation of pollution laws rather
than a tightening of them.

'tain't going to happen!

smile


I'm not holding my breath though. *Batteries suck and they're not getting
much better. *It will be exciting to see what the next 50 years brings.

Batteries have to carry both fuel and oxidizer, like a rocket system
does. If an ICE vehicle had to carry its own air supply, its propellant
weight would expand by 15 times!

Apples and oranges. We're talking ion transfer only.

I realistically see batteries of the future shrinking down to the
size and weight of cigarette packs, with more voltage and storage
than what we have now. Just like cell phones and computers did.

---
Mark

On Sep 17, 9:36*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

How about the balonium/unobtaium ion battery that recharges in five
minutes? That's the one that electric vehicle advocates are counting on!

Having a little nip this evening are we Orval? (not that there's
anything wrong with that) Anyhoo...forget about advocates.
They were the first wave. Now it's progressed on to actual
manufacturers and distributors.

I can see these things man. ( I'm sober)

Dateline 2016:

"Cessna has announced that after trial tests and FAA
final certification, they are proud to announce their new
line of electric airplanes. With their elimination of a need
for either an intake or exhaust system, the performance
numbers are quite impressive, extending the Skyhawk
service ceiling to 20 thousand ft."

---
Mark