The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Tuesday, 9 March 2021 at 09:24:52 UTC, wrote:
The issue of the decline of gliding has been debated to death in the UK and a few key issues have been identified, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread:

1. Ageing population within gliding caused in part by lack of recruitment of youngsters.

2. In the UK the majority (perhaps all?) of gliding operations use the member's club model. Another issue is that by and large the people who have positions on club committees are generally not the best people to enhance the club as they have little/no commercial prowess.

3. 1960's infrastructu people are no longer willing to spend an entire day on the airfield for a 20 min flight. We need to adopt self-launchers and slot booking.
(there has been some resistance to this in the UK as private owners have realised that if the gliding community move to self-launchers, the value of their glider will diminish).

Of course these issues are interlinked.

I'm not sure your suggestion is a solution either.

Just like the counterparts elsewhere, you rant about supposed lack of commercial experience (your opinion only), yet you haven't shown signs of much yourself, perhaps with examples that might support this radical theorem of getting rid of some participants to help recruit others.

I'm mystified why you keep going on about a 20 minute flight, and people who don't have time for more.

People have differing levels of motivation experience and their target for a day. Despite your assertion, people at all levels are happy to be there all or most of the day, sometimes just to help friends without gliding themselves. Fly the tug, instruct, early solo, cross-country, workshop, cut the grass, retrieves ...

Our club had only advance booking last year, due to the virus. Half day for two seaters and early single seaters, all day for Discus. One day I had a Discus booked, but the weather never quite tipped me into rigging. A band of lower cloud and slight drizzle came over, but eventually cleared about 3 pm. The CFI was saying he didn't think there was anyone left to fly. I said actually I think _ is still hoping to fly. Well, where is he? He's already on his way down there, to see if _ (an instructor) is still around.

We towed a glider back out to the launch point. There were 8 of us out there, ok not all necessary, just so one person could have 3 winch launch check flights. He'd been out there helping while they flew earlier, and they came back out for him, instead of clearing off home early.

Even at the summit of supposed self-centeredness, international competitions, there are far more people there than just the team pilots, and they don't all leave shortly after the flying is done for the day. It is also a social event. There and all round the world, some of these folk have been friends for years, some just starting.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 14:35:48 -0800, andy l wrote:

Even at the summit of supposed self-centeredness, international
competitions, there are far more people there than just the team pilots,
and they don't all leave shortly after the flying is done for the day.
It is also a social event. There and all round the world, some of these
folk have been friends for years, some just starting.

Agreed. Some of the best fun I've had while not actually flying, was
after I'd soloed and converted to the SZD Juniors. There were maybe half
a dozen of us and, as is common at my club, we all being winch launched,
not having yet converted to aero tow. So, it was common the have a gaggle
of Junior pilots in an unofficial queue for the Juniors and so one of our
amusements, if the day was good enough for the Juniors to stay up, was to
see if we could organise the flight line well enough to beat 20 launches
an hour off our two drum winch.

We never managed that: 18/hour wasn't too hard to maintain for an hour or
so, with one of us staying in the cable retrieve truck and another four
helping at the launch point, keeping the launch queue pushed up and
retrieving landing gliders - that is, if none of the instructors waited
until they and their student was at the head of the queue and in the
glider before briefing them - but we never did crack 20/hour. Fun to try,
though.

We had similar fun running rope during competitions, by seeing how fast
we could launch the grid and trying to avoid having a queue of waiting
tugs.

Sadly, now we have a booking system on weekends for pre-solo pilots,
there just aren't enough people at the launch point to play those games.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Tuesday, 9 March 2021 at 06:27:21 UTC, Patrick (LS6-b EH) wrote:
I wholly reject this foregone conclusion, it makes me so angry!

At the club I fly at (south of Calgary, Alberta) we have ...
[snip]
I am AMAZED by the content coming from Europe, especially the young people.


John G seems to have formed the same suspicion as I have.

Half a dozen IDs posting jaded repetition on urasb, some anonymous, possibly the same person talking to himself, and very similar in theme to certain posts above, does not constitute a wide-ranging debate or a consensus of the British gliding movement, and the fact that almost all the other old banter that used to be there has been beaten into submission by these trolls doesn't mean we are cowed by the correctness of the argument.

Our club has within 10 on the number of members compared to the previous year. Covid restrictions obviously bit into the operation last season but there was plenty of instruction and single seater flying by July and August, and we and other clubs are looking forward to re-emerging from lockdown shortly. It even looks mildly soarable right now.

Sometimes it can seem like plenty of older folk are around, but on a midweek day when some are at work and some retired, why not?

I looked at the website of a club in another country, considering a visit as a family member has bought a second home nearby. A breakdown of their membership numbers shows about a third are under 26.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 at 7:08:28 AM UTC-8, andy l wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 March 2021 at 06:27:21 UTC, Patrick (LS6-b EH) wrote:
I wholly reject this foregone conclusion, it makes me so angry!

At the club I fly at (south of Calgary, Alberta) we have ...
[snip]
I am AMAZED by the content coming from Europe, especially the young people.

John G seems to have formed the same suspicion as I have.

Half a dozen IDs posting jaded repetition on urasb, some anonymous, possibly the same person talking to himself, and very similar in theme to certain posts above, does not constitute a wide-ranging debate or a consensus of the British gliding movement, and the fact that almost all the other old banter that used to be there has been beaten into submission by these trolls doesn't mean we are cowed by the correctness of the argument.

Our club has within 10 on the number of members compared to the previous year. Covid restrictions obviously bit into the operation last season but there was plenty of instruction and single seater flying by July and August, and we and other clubs are looking forward to re-emerging from lockdown shortly. It even looks mildly soarable right now.

Sometimes it can seem like plenty of older folk are around, but on a midweek day when some are at work and some retired, why not?

I looked at the website of a club in another country, considering a visit as a family member has bought a second home nearby. A breakdown of their membership numbers shows about a third are under 26.

I don’t believe that conventional advertising is cost effective, but a local FBO would make an early tow over crowded highways headed for Lake Tahoe resorts. The ride ship had GLIDER RIDES, displayed on the under side of the wings
Business would always increase almost right away.
JJ.

Patrick (LS6-b EH) wrote on 3/8/2021 10:27 PM:
I wholly reject this foregone conclusion, it makes me so angry!

At the club I fly at (south of Calgary, Alberta) we have experienced a recent resurgence in interest that is converting into students and our students (at least early observations) are sticking with it. There are a few things we are doing that make me feel as though this is sustainable, and replicable.

1 - Promotion/education - our club offers a winter "introduction to soaring", 3-evening seminar series educating interested individuals on the nuts and bolts of soaring - the practical how and why. This is NOT ground school. Ground school is a tax on interest and should be levied only on those who are sufficiently interested - it's not a great way to recruit people to the sport. It's necessary once convinced of the value of pursuing the sport, but not required to convert on passing interest. Our goal is to teach individuals about the basic theory of flight, specific site operations, patterns, and soaring meteorology, plus some XC storytelling to make them drool. They should be aware of basic fundamentals and safe when they show up at the field.

2 - Recruiting - we have a fixed price, set number of tow training package we call "Objective Oriented Training" and limit our student intake to 10 (membership of about 70) per year. If these students don't complete all the flights (40 - 25 limited to 30 minutes depending on the time of year they join) then they are unlikely to achieve an outcome, unlikely to return, and 'high margin' since they pre-paid for flights they chose not to use. If the student flies through the flights they are more likely to achieve an outcome, and more likely to return (see step 3). Coming into 2021 we have 25 people on our waiting list and expect 6 of 8 students from 2020 to return, but as members not students.

3 - Retention - gliding is an activity, soaring is a sport, and it's defined by task flying. We created the Proving Grounds (soaringtasks.com) at our club and myself and some friends have scaled it into a product that's now supported by the Soaring Association of Canada, Soaring Society of America and 3 forward-thinking clubs in the Netherlands. The platform introduces the concept of task flying, and the tools required to do this starting with a short task around the airfield that a time building pilot can attempt before requiring approval for a medium (60miles) task that takes them outside of final glide. Finally, a large task (90sm) that will require skill to complete and in doing so should have developed a safe XC pilot. IGC traces are emailed to a club bot for scoring (average speed) and times are ranked on magnetic whiteboard slips, organized from fastest to slowest on beautiful trophy boards in the clubhouse.

Here is where the 'old guard' needs to accept that the "up and comers" are interested in the sport of soaring, not the activity of gliding. We need to reconcile what that means and have the humility to put down the Volkslogger and take a lesson from the teenager with XCSoar - or at least not dismiss their enthusiasm and interest.

4 - Promotion/advertising - I personally always preach "tell our story" and at our club we do this to service various audiences. We share professional content to our tiny LinkedIn audience, we share photos and videos on Instagram (@glidecunim) to the international gliding audience (so our analytics tell us), and cross-post those to our Facebook page (fb.me/glidecunim) that is a similar-sized audience, but predominantly 'local'. We also produce a weekly newsletter during the flying season that is very formulaic but widely celebrated for the especially interested called 'Turnpoints' (https://mailchi.mp/97ee50b8eb17/turnpoints_signup) with 217 subscribers and a 70+% open rate it's a point of pride for many of us. Keep in mind twice as many people are reading it each week as we have members.

4a - Promotion/advertising - here the Soaring Association of Canada covers 80% of marketing spend up to $1250 ($1000 rebate) that we have historically spent on trying to sell intro flights. In 2020 with none of this promotion being cost-effective, we invested in our physical collateral with new trade show posters and 'rack cards' that share a common back but have 8 different captivating front photos. All printed through Vistaprint for about $800.

We are doing something amazing - generally in the sport, specifically at Cu Nim (cunim.org) and telling this story should be easy. We need to remember rule #1 - know your audience. Look around your club and see if you recognize common traits, cater content to folks like this that might be captivated by the story you have to tell, the things you can tinker on.

5 - Culture - nothing matters more than culture. We use Slack to organize our "doers" and have active conversations that email can't support. This winter things have been pretty quiet until a few folks started getting Condor and now we're as active for posts as we would be during the flying season. Condor and Slack have been a great way to keep our most enthusiastic members connected and with a cornerstone of positive, supportive energy we have established a really terrific "vibe" on the flightline - of people looking to get more from each flight, and doing whatever they can to get into an aircraft and have that flight.

One of the greatest things about soaring, beyond soaring is that the club experience provides a rich social experience, and the opportunity to be USEFUL. I have a theory that people like to be USEFUL - at least those who fit in well at gliding clubs. Like being asked to open a pickle jar - what is that satisfaction? Immediate usefulness.

It's easy to make people feel useful with some basic supportive training, and it's not too hard for the sport to keep making you feel like the king of the world - if you're interested in soaring. If you're interested in gliding, well... you've got a problem.

I am AMAZED by the content coming from Europe, especially the young people.

This should be a golden age of soaring if we'd stop lamenting the certainty of its demise!
- Flight computers are free
- Forecasting borders on cheating
- Ample supply of adequate or better gliders that depreciate slower than inflation
- Sharing platforms - content: Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok, Mailchimp...
- Sharing platforms - traces: WeGlide, Skylines, ... OLC

Hear me talk about this stuff on episode 86 of Soaring the Sky Podcast.

I like what you said, but my understanding is hampered by my definitions of soaring and
gliding, which are fuzzy and overlap a lot. Can you give my your definitions?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

@Eric, I consider gliding a leisure activity, like biking on city trails to get an ice cream.

Soaring is something closer to the Tour de France, or a mountain bike time trial.

Both share a fundamental skill, and you can't race in the Tour de France without being able to take a bike along a city trail to get ice cream.

I agree, a lot of overlap - is a 5h Silver duration flight soaring or gliding?

Floating may be gliding, flying away from home is soaring, task flying to me is a bridge (simplified). Too many clubs are averse to flying away from home and force gliding on their members who are looking for soaring. I empathize with them XC development is rife with risks.

I'm not right, but I don't accept that this sport needs to be in decline, and think that statement should be rebutted at best, or ignored/dismissed.

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 3:06:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Good morning,

My name is Douglas and I am a glider pilot here in the UK.

I would like to start a friendly discussion about the decline of gliding and whether this is an issue outside of the UK.

Within the UK gliding has been in decline for decades and according to discussion on gliderpilot.net this is down to a few key issues, which I may go into later in the thread if required.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts on this.

-------------
Douglas

I believe the key to reversing this trend is getting more youth involved. I have a dream to start a club at my local airport. However, I am going solo on this, as there is only one other glider pilot in my area. A friend of mine is the director of the local Boy's and Girls Club, a non-profit organization where kids can go after school while parents are still at work, and get help with their homework, or get involved in a number of other activities they offer. I have presented my idea to him of offering some kind of flight training to kids who are interested. It would involve a mix of ground school/theory, as well as practice using Condor 2 with VR goggles, and would be free to the kids. For those kids who are interested, and do well with this, we could then offer and transition them over into flying a real glider and taking real lessons. I believe this could be a tremendous feeder program for young people who are interested.

My trouble though is two-fold:
1. Money. I don't have the funds to purchase a 2-place glider that could be used for training. I'm saving up for something like this, but at this time it is out of the picture.
2. Experience. I'm still a low-hour glider pilot myself. I only have my private rating. I need to build time and experience flying around my local area, and after that I need to get my CFI-G.

I believe that if we can involve more young people, it will also draw parents in with them. And if we can structure it financially to where it is more doable for your low-middle class income family, it could really take off. Yes, people are more busy these days than they used to be, but some of the reason for that is that finances are tougher. And because the cost in general aviation has risen so much in the last 50 yrs or so, young people are writing it off before they even look at it. One estimate I saw was that on average it costs about $10,000 to $15,000 just to get your private pilot's license these days. However, if done carefully, a glider license could be done for under $4,000. However, if clubs are folding, and the only operations left are the commercial ones, then this number goes up dramatically, and becomes prohibitive for all but those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 17:12:56 -0800, John Foster wrote:

I believe the key to reversing this trend is getting more youth
involved. I have a dream to start a club at my local airport. However,
I am going solo on this, as there is only one other glider pilot in my
area. A friend of mine is the director of the local Boy's and Girls
Club, a non-profit organization where kids can go after school while
parents are still at work, and get help with their homework, or get
involved in a number of other activities they offer. I have presented
my idea to him of offering some kind of flight training to kids who are
interested.

Sounds like a very good idea.

Have to thought about adding model flying to the mix? Here I'm thinking
about free flight models - uncontrolled, so flying them successfully
needs some knowledge of aerodynamics and trimming. Some suitable starter
models are shown on my website he

https://www.gregorie.org/freeflight/index.html

- I'm thinking primarily of the Easymini catapult glider: the rest of the
topics are more advances and show what yo can do with free flight.

The only fly in this ointment is that the Chinese are currently causing a
world balsa shortage, having bought many of the balsa tree plantations fo
use making wind turbine blades.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:06:18 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Good morning,

My name is Douglas and I am a glider pilot here in the UK.

I would like to start a friendly discussion about the decline of gliding and whether this is an issue outside of the UK.

Within the UK gliding has been in decline for decades and according to discussion on gliderpilot.net this is down to a few key issues, which I may go into later in the thread if required.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts on this.

-------------
Douglas

On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 12:06:18 UTC+2, wrote:
Good morning,

My name is Douglas and I am a glider pilot here in the UK.

I would like to start a friendly discussion about the decline of gliding and whether this is an issue outside of the UK.

Within the UK gliding has been in decline for decades and according to discussion on gliderpilot.net this is down to a few key issues, which I may go into later in the thread if required.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts on this.

-------------
Douglas

Gliding as a sport has been in steady decline since early 90's, your country's figures may vary a bit, but probably not much. There has been multitude of plausible explanations over decades, such as cost, time, lack of private planes, club planes, availability of airfields, airspace etc.

In my opinion it is just normal cycle of people thinking what they do with there spare time. Hobbies come and go. Flying is not as exciting or interesting as it used to be for "normal people". Did you know that amount of people that read books in their spare time is down by 30% in few decades? Reading, 30%!? Are books or stories too expensive, time consuming or what? No, people probably just want to lie on a sofa staring at their phones instead.

It's time to NOT feel this quilt anymore. Let's just move on, try to keep what we have and have fun flying. Yes we can promote our sport and make sure everyone can get into sport. But to cry ourselves to sleep every night because declining numbers, we have done enough of it.