"Going for the Visual"

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:27:41 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
wrote:

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote
"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?
It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.

Oops, I overlooked the ATIS in your initial callup and I agree that if the
pilot does not report it, that you should request it. I was always taught
to advise the controller on my initial callup that I have the ATIS.

But, it is frequent for me to be asked if I have the ATIS even when I have
just called in reporting that I DO have the ATIS!

So far as the other, the pilot should know that he has to report the
airport (or preceding a/c) in sight in order to get the visual. So when
you say "expect", that primes me to report the airport in sight.

Most airports I do approaches to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Do you say you have "the ATIS" or do you say you have the
appropriate/current ATIS code. Makes a difference to the controller.

JPH

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:27:41 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote

"N1234, expect visual runway 25, advise when you have atis Xray
and the airport in sight"

Why not just: "N5843Q, expect visual runway 32"?
It's shorter and conveys the same information and (implied) request.

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.


Oops, I overlooked the ATIS in your initial callup and I agree that if the
pilot does not report it, that you should request it. I was always taught
to advise the controller on my initial callup that I have the ATIS.

But, it is frequent for me to be asked if I have the ATIS even when I have
just called in reporting that I DO have the ATIS!

So far as the other, the pilot should know that he has to report the
airport (or preceding a/c) in sight in order to get the visual. So when
you say "expect", that primes me to report the airport in sight.


Most airports I do approaches to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I've had the same experience. I usually check in with something like
"Approach, Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa."

about half the time I get asked if I have the ATIS, told to report when I have
the ATIS, or told ATIS papa is current.

J Haggerty wrote:

Do you say you have "the ATIS" or do you say you have the
appropriate/current ATIS code. Makes a difference to the controller.


But, it is frequent for me to be asked if I have the ATIS even when I have
just called in reporting that I DO have the ATIS!



--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Ray Andraka wrote:
I've had the same experience. I usually check in with something like
"Approach, Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa."

To change the topic a bit...

I've been flying lately with somebody who tends to leave off the "who
you're talking to" part of radio calls. He would make the above call as
simply, "Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa". It
drives me nuts, but the more I think about it, I wonder if it's really a
problem?

What do you controllers say? Do you like to have every pilot call you
by name at the beginning of each call, or is it just extraneous verbiage
that could be dropped with no harm done?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

To change the topic a bit...

I've been flying lately with somebody who tends to leave off the "who
you're talking to" part of radio calls. He would make the above call as
simply, "Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa". It
drives me nuts, but the more I think about it, I wonder if it's really a
problem?

What do you controllers say? Do you like to have every pilot call you
by name at the beginning of each call, or is it just extraneous verbiage
that could be dropped with no harm done?


I find being called by name to be useful, especially when it's the wrong
name.

I get called all kinds of things, and I usually joke about it that
I'm used to it being married and all.

I guess it's not such a big deal, and I dont rub it in if I get called
the wrong facility, but it'd be nice if the crew knew where they
were I'd think.

On the flip side, what if I reply "504 (leaving out airline callsign),
roger". Technically it's incorrect, and not being a walking FAR
knowitall, I'd guess you are supposed to identify what facility you are
calling, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Being called "approach" is about the only real insult, on those
occasions I may reply with the name of an airline that may
offend them, or call a Citation a twin cessna, etc.

So in summary, the wrong facility name when I'm not staring at
the scope may send up a warning flag that someone possibly
got the wrong freq. No facility name at all to me means they
didnt understand it from the last sector, very possible, forgot
it, also possible, or lazy, equally possible.

Chris

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Ray Andraka wrote:
I've had the same experience. I usually check in with something like
"Approach, Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa."

To change the topic a bit...

I've been flying lately with somebody who tends to leave off the "who
you're talking to" part of radio calls. He would make the above call as
simply, "Cherokee 3351W, level five thousand, information papa". It
drives me nuts, but the more I think about it, I wonder if it's really a
problem?

What do you controllers say? Do you like to have every pilot call you
by name at the beginning of each call, or is it just extraneous verbiage
that could be dropped with no harm done?

We have some airports that have AWOS, but we don't get any of
that info into our computer, but the pilot can receive it.
We have a couple that we have no weather reporting, but the pilot
can get it from their company on the ground, and they let us know.
And theres a couple that MAYBE they can get someone to answer
unicom and get the weather.
There are only a few left I can think of that have no SIAP, no AWOS,
and lucky to have anything living within 20nm of it. Those pilots
usually know what they are dealing with way in advance and have
done it regularly and cancel way out. They arent going to get a
contact approach, those are the ones that will on occasion ask for
a cruise clearance, but those are also airports with sometimes no
phones and no cellular coverage.
In the end it's up to the pilot to get the weather, and if it's not
available we have to advise them of that, too.
Luckily the weather at those airports are VFR probably 350 days
out of the year, but talk about remote. One guy called from a
phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time to drive back to the
airport (30mins away), get started and go. A couple have recently
worked out private approaches and someone available on the
ground associated with the airplane to get them the weather, Lifeguard
flights usually, with an employee of the hospital nearby giving them
the conditions.
Chris


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
link.net...

It may be shorter, but we are required to know the other two items:
that you have the current weather (atis) and that you have the airport
in sight.


How are you going to know the current weather at fields without weather
reporting?



Can skip that info if pilot advises he has the ATIS, but since the
rule says the controller shall advise of the approach on initial
contact or as soon as possible thereafter, the pilot has to advise
of the ATIS on his initial contact. Most airports I do approaches
to dont have an ATIS, so it's a moot point.

See 7110.65 Par 4-7-10
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0407.html#4-7-1

4-7-10. APPROACH INFORMATION

a. Both en route and terminal approach control sectors shall provide
current approach information to aircraft destined to airports for which
they
provide approach control services. This information shall be provided on
initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. Approach information
contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states the
appropriate ATIS code or items 3-5 below may be omitted for pilots
destined
to uncontrolled airports when they advise receipt of the automated
weather;
otherwise, issue approach information by including the following:

1. Approach clearance or type approach to be expected if two or more
approaches are published and the clearance limit does not indicate which
will be used.

2. Runway if different from that to which the instrument approach is
made.

3. Surface wind.

4. Ceiling and visibility if the reported ceiling at the airport of
intended landing is below 1,000 feet or below the highest circling
minimum,
whichever is greater, or the visibility is less than 3 miles.

5. Altimeter setting for the airport of intended landing.


I'm going to an uncontrolled field without weather reporting. How are you
going to comply with that paragraph?

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote:
One guy called from a phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time
to drive back to the airport (30mins away), get started and go.

I believe it's a TERPS requirement that to have an approach you need to
have a working and publicly accessable landline phone on the field.
Don't know anything about departures, though :-)

I once got into a ****ing contest with Verizon (they were probably
calling themselves Bell Atlantic back then) when they tore the only
public phone out of a small airport around here because it wasn't
generating enough revenue. I had gone to call for a clearance and found
the booth still there, but wires just hanging out where there used to be
a phone.

I talked to everybody I could think of (the Public Service Commission,
the FSDO, the airport manager, NY Tracon, AOPA, etc). Nobody seemed too
worried about it.

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
link.net...

We have some airports that have AWOS, but we don't get any of
that info into our computer, but the pilot can receive it.
We have a couple that we have no weather reporting, but the pilot
can get it from their company on the ground, and they let us know.
And theres a couple that MAYBE they can get someone to answer
unicom and get the weather.
There are only a few left I can think of that have no SIAP, no AWOS,
and lucky to have anything living within 20nm of it. Those pilots
usually know what they are dealing with way in advance and have
done it regularly and cancel way out. They arent going to get a
contact approach, those are the ones that will on occasion ask for
a cruise clearance, but those are also airports with sometimes no
phones and no cellular coverage.
In the end it's up to the pilot to get the weather, and if it's not
available we have to advise them of that, too.
Luckily the weather at those airports are VFR probably 350 days
out of the year, but talk about remote. One guy called from a
phonebooth, needed a clearance, but also time to drive back to the
airport (30mins away), get started and go. A couple have recently
worked out private approaches and someone available on the
ground associated with the airplane to get them the weather, Lifeguard
flights usually, with an employee of the hospital nearby giving them
the conditions.


What about those fields with SIAPs but no weather reporting at all?

In article .net,
SeeAndAvoid wrote:
Being called "approach" is about the only real insult, on those
occasions I may reply with the name of an airline that may
offend them, or call a Citation a twin cessna, etc.

That's good to know. I was getting flight following last Sunday and the
frequency was dead quiet. I wanted to make a request, but I couldn't
remember if I was talking to approach or center so I had to look it up.
I wouldn't want to find out what they demote a single to. ;-)

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/