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#41
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What First Glider to own?
On Dec 4, 11:03*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 23:15 03 December 2010, John Cochrane wrote: Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner (an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k glider! * Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. You're overlooking insurance costs, no? *And the more expensive glider does cost more when the insurance premium comes due. Jim Beckman Another point to bear in mind is that the older the glider, the bigger the chance it might have been repaired or modified by a previous owner. Early in my ownership of an ASW-20 a decade or so ago, as I slowed in a strong thermal at cloudbase, the ship did an instantaneous stall/ spin entry and in an instant I was looking at sand and cactus instead of blue sky and fluffy clouds. It turned out that the previous owner had installed lead weights at various places in the ship (including tail and wings) and the weight and balance was WAAAY off. This was despite having had one done (but improperly) just before I took ownership. Restoring the weight and balance to within the manufacturer's specs cured that problem, but it's made me carefully inspect any ship, esepcially previously owned ones, for damage and modifications. And always do your own weight and balance! Mike PS - I now own a Discus 2 with a newer Cobra trailer and I second the finance professor's opinion about ownership costs. Apart from the initial capital, newer ships aren't that expensive. Now, if we could get the Euro back down to 0.8 against the US dollar! |
#42
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Thank you all so much for the information. I am very happy that this thread has produced so much discussion. There are many pilots like me out there who are considering their first ship. I hope that everyone will continue to add information here. Again, many thanks! |
#43
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What First Glider to own?
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. |
#44
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#45
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What First Glider to own?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote:
Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote: That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions. Each different construction method has its own gotchas: - metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay, but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the rivets were steel.... - wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and tail. - glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight & balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#46
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What First Glider to own?
Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote: Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote: That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions. Each different construction method has its own gotchas: - metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay, but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the rivets were steel.... - wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and tail. - glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight & balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection. Interesting that "sparkorama" hasn't identified himself - which is annoying to me because I've probably been in the back seat while he was flying :-). In any case, He said "I'll be putting some winter flying time in and I'm considering buying my first glider once I'm back to comfortable solos and my private license.". So, take your time while you get to solo and license - there's no need to rush. In any case, I heartily endorse Juan's comment that you fly the heck out of the 1-34, L-33, and B4 while you sort out what it is that you want to do with the glider (XC, acro, flag pole sitting?) while waiting for your glider to come on the market. For many used glider buyers, it's probably not a good idea to look for a single glider because you may wait a looong time for that glider to come around. Rather, you should decide on a range gliders and buy the first (or second) one that comes up for sale that meets your needs. BTW, George Waters has a glider that may fit your bill :-). Tony V. LS6-b "6N" |
#47
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What First Glider to own?
On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:
If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it. The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo. Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all. Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some speed "for safety". Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it. Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than 40:1. |
#48
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What First Glider to own?
I have been considering this same subject myself.
A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others statements. Ditto club Libelle. H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much more acceptable looks than a Libelle. ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard. Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness, but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly. LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot. STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones hand off the stick! Std Jantar1 pretty good all round. Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit. If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B. I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. Easy to fly. I would avoid the following like the plague. Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common. Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit, uglier than even Libelle. Good luck and regards Dave Lawley At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote: Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote: That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions. -- Sparkorama |
#49
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What First Glider to own?
On Dec 7, 9:50*pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself. A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others statements. Ditto club Libelle. H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much more acceptable looks than a Libelle. ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard. Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness, but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly. LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot. STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones hand off the stick! Std Jantar1 *pretty good all round. Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit. If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B. I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. *Easy to fly. I would avoid the following like the plague. Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common. Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit, uglier than even Libelle. Good luck and regards Dave Lawley At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote: Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote: That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions. -- Sparkorama- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience and average skills. My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots, report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward position. The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting the fus from major damage. For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/. Mike |
#50
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What First Glider to own?
The Kestrel 19 is not a glider for the inexperienced.
It has a busy cockpit and demanding flight envelope to get the glider correctly configured for the various flight phases. It is not glider that can be rushed in the circuit and landing phases. The glider needs space and time and requires the pilot to keep their brains well ahead of the game. Speak to some of the `old`Kestrel boys and they will put you straight! Colin At 08:41 08 December 2010, Mike wrote: On Dec 7, 9:50=A0pm, Dave Lawley wrote: I have been considering this same subject myself. A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others statements. Ditto club Libelle. H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and muc= h more acceptable looks than a Libelle. ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is = a big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard. Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness, but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly. LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot. STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilo= t who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily h= e was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones hand off the stick! Std Jantar1 =A0pretty good all round. Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit. If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B. I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. =A0E= asy to fly. I would avoid the following like the plague. Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common. Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit, uglier than even Libelle. Good luck and regards Dave Lawley At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote: Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote: That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D SZD Standard Jantar 1 They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably account for a greater performance difference than any that might be inherent in the design. You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people who haven't been as lucky. The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding Safety" if you can find a copy. If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be designed for human beings!) As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly quicker than they do... Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself. I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions. -- Sparkorama- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience and average skills. My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots, report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward position. The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting the fus from major damage. For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/. Mike |
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