Does USA need a Club Class?

Any thoughts on the idea of creating a Club Class similar to the model used
in Europe?

Mike

MC wrote:
Any thoughts on the idea of creating a Club Class similar to the
model used
in Europe?

Mike

We got one, its called Sports Class. My God, we now have something like
8 classes, the last thing we need is ANOTHER CLASS.
JJ

we don't need another class...we just need to fix the one we have.....

I proposed years ago that we modify the Sports class "more or less" to the
very successful European Club Class (they actually have two versions there
for standard class gliders and 15 meter gliders called the "racing class)
My (and others) suggestion was to eliminate gliders from the Sports class
that already had a "competitive" class of their own....
Doing this I suggested the sports class would 'disallow" any "current
production" competition glider or variation thereof, from Sports class
competition.
Meaning..if you have a "racing" glider that is of a series currently being
produced you'd have to fly it in the respective class it was designed for
(15M, Standard, open and yes, world class) . If you have a glider that has
been surpassed by more competitive models from the manufacturer,then it
could be handicapped and allowed into sports class... The main idea with
this was to allow closer handicapping and allow older gliders (lower cost)
to fly with their pilots competitively and let them fly in called tasks
rather than having to design new scoring systems to meet the broadest array
of handicaps.
The other change to sports class I suggested was that no one would be
allowed to fly in a sports class "National" contest, that had not
participated in a Sports class regional contest within the preceding 3
years, thus keeping the class "pure" .....since it seems pilots who
otherwise snub their noses at sports class seem to rush top attend only when
there is a title at stake....and then of course as we see it today, show up
in droves to fly their latest ship...
I never got any flack from these proposals except of course from those who
were already fling the latest and greatest ships......but even most of them
admitted in the past it would be beneficial to promoting the sports class
and would allow owners on lesser budgets with older gliders a place to
compete where they could more or less evenly match themselves and their
ships and bring more into the sport or glider racing..which can't be bad for
any of us...
anyway.my 2c are there again.....
tim

--
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com



wrote in message
oups.com...

MC wrote:
Any thoughts on the idea of creating a Club Class similar to the
model used
in Europe?

Mike

We got one, its called Sports Class. My God, we now have something like
8 classes, the last thing we need is ANOTHER CLASS.
JJ

Tim Mara wrote:
we don't need another class...we just need to fix the one we
have.....

I proposed years ago that we modify the Sports class "more or less"
to the
very successful European Club Class (they actually have two versions
there
for standard class gliders and 15 meter gliders called the "racing
class)
My (and others) suggestion was to eliminate gliders from the Sports
class
that already had a "competitive" class of their own....
Doing this I suggested the sports class would 'disallow" any "current

production" competition glider or variation thereof, from Sports
class
competition.
Meaning..if you have a "racing" glider that is of a series currently
being
produced you'd have to fly it in the respective class it was designed
for
(15M, Standard, open and yes, world class) . If you have a glider
that has
been surpassed by more competitive models from the manufacturer,then
it
could be handicapped and allowed into sports class... The main idea
with
this was to allow closer handicapping and allow older gliders (lower
cost)
to fly with their pilots competitively and let them fly in called
tasks
rather than having to design new scoring systems to meet the broadest
array
of handicaps.
The other change to sports class I suggested was that no one would be

allowed to fly in a sports class "National" contest, that had not
participated in a Sports class regional contest within the preceding
3
years, thus keeping the class "pure" .....since it seems pilots who
otherwise snub their noses at sports class seem to rush top attend
only when
there is a title at stake....and then of course as we see it today,
show up
in droves to fly their latest ship...
I never got any flack from these proposals except of course from
those who
were already fling the latest and greatest ships......but even most
of them
admitted in the past it would be beneficial to promoting the sports
class
and would allow owners on lesser budgets with older gliders a place
to
compete where they could more or less evenly match themselves and
their
ships and bring more into the sport or glider racing..which can't be
bad for
any of us...
anyway.my 2c are there again.....
tim

--
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com


Can't argue with any of that, Tim, but where are you going to draw the
line? The V1's and 20's are still quite potent machines. How about the
Genesis, its out of production. I do like your proposal to only allow
real sports pilots to compete, but then it wouldn't be all that hard to
log a sports regionals every 3 years just to keep ones options open.
What I see is a lot of local pilots will fly sports nats when they are
close and the other nationals when they are close. That's what I do and
kind-a like it that way.

JJ

Can't argue with any of that, Tim, but where are you going to draw the
line? The V1's and 20's are still quite potent machines. How about the
Genesis, its out of production. I do like your proposal to only allow
real sports pilots to compete, but then it wouldn't be all that hard to
log a sports regionals every 3 years just to keep ones options open.
What I see is a lot of local pilots will fly sports nats when they are
close and the other nationals when they are close. That's what I do and
kind-a like it that way.

JJ


Obviously the rules committee could have "some" hand in this...and of course
they would have, but it've pretty obvious to anyone who watches the results
what gliders are competing in the FAI classes and which ones are no longer
showing up there....
It was justa very few seasons ago when the 15M class was filled with
ASW20's, LS6's and Ventus........but look now....if you see even one or 2
there it's a suprise......so where are they now??? sitting at a club when
the contest is nearby?? that's actually the point...in part )
as for flyinga regional to fly a national.that seems a no brainer to
me.....and many others
tim

Just checked the entry list for Parowan, Tim's idea would eliminate 50
pilots out of the 74 that wish to fly the sports nationals this year.
Is this what we want? Sports class has been very successful because you
come to the contest with what you have, your ship and your talents.
Over the years there has been suggestions to not allow pilots with
diamond badges or not allow certain ships. Let's leave it alone, it's
working real fine.
Haven't we plowed this ground before?
JJ

Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4 or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly "handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

An excellent reasoned response!

Perhaps it IS time for the US to get serious and join other countries in
FAI Club Class competition.

I have yet to hear a reason not to.

Mike


"Tim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4 or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly "handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

Tim wrote:
Couldn't have said the way things could be better myself. If you do
not
like having spent $100k+ only to get beaten by KS, 7V, etc. in
whatever
"modern" class you want to fly in, then Trade-"Down" to a $30K LS-4
or
a $14K Std Cirrus, enjoy a few non-soaring vacations with the
proceeeds, and get beaten by the very talented younger crowd of
racers
who drive their lowly "club class" ships. But this would only be
truly
possible if there were a true or modified "club class" contests in
the
U.S.A.

I would further echo Bob Fidler's comments on how we should be racing
at home like we race in international competitions. IMHO, we are
setting our teams up for overall failure if we expect "modern" glider
guiders to adapt from their ASW-Wahtever to a Std Libelle in the
three
weeks of a WGC. "Club Class" flying is a particular skill that can be
gained in this country. I for one, from personal experience, would
prefer that we send pilots to world competitions that are put in the
position to excel, rather than merely compete for the honor of it.
Lucky for me, I actually was a "club class" pilot when I went to
worlds
last year.

This comes from a VERY committed sports/club class pilot who owns a
$14K Std. Libelle and who would love to stay in my Libelle for many,
many years to come. I fly sports class regionals for the experience
in
my class and to share my growing knowledge with other pilots. I fly
sports class nationals because that is the only thing my $14K is
sometimes competitive in.

While I may be a little above-average in my soaring and racing
skills,
my win at Elmira's Sports Class Nats in 2003 was in part because I
happened to own one of the better ships for the conditions that
existed
there during that contest period. Should luck, $'s, planning or the
combination of all three in choice of ship determine who wins in a
"fair" and "handicapped" contest?

The fiction that handicaps can even out performance over the wide
range
of soaring conditions that US Sport Class are held in (i.e. Albert
Lea,
Mifflin, Minden, Ionia, Elmira, etc.) is just that ... fiction. Ask
anyone who has flown a pure ridge day at Mifflin whether a dry ASW-27
is going to be quite a bit quicker than than a Libelle. Or how about
if
that next western thermal on any particular day is always 42:1 away
and
you are in a 35:1 ship? Yeah that pilot might have been competitive
on
most days, but that one day just cost him or her any chance on that
particular day no matter how well they flew their fairly
"handicapped"
ship.

If somebody honestly, in detail, and without privately smirking, can
explain to me how my Std Libelle is going to be equally competitive
in
all expected wx conditions as a flapped ship (i.e. LS-3 to ASW-27) in
the Western thermals of Parowan this June, I would love to hear it!!!

In Europe, Sports Class AND Club Class co-exist just fine - even in
small countries like Norway, for instance. The same can be made to
work
here. Somebody just has to step up and prove the concept out by
holding
a few well located Club Class Events. Then of course the powers that
be
have to approve it.

Oh yeah... one more thing... club class is fun!!! It is fun to try
and
outperform the x-c speeds acheived by the greats of our sport who cut
their teeth in "club class" ships inthe late 60's and early 70's. And
the competition who is flying "club class" contests in Europe and at
the world level will stack up with anyone in any other "real" class -
and they fly libelles, cirri, LS-4's, etc. - Willingly!!!

Club class should at least be given a full and honest chance in the
U.S.

Flame Shield to full power...

Tim S. McAllister "EY"
U.S. Club Class Team, 2004 WGC Elverum, Norway


Tim Mara wrote: SNIP

Gotta disagree just a bit with EY. Recent history shows that you need a
LOW performance glider to excel in the Sports Class.
Why? Because it lets the guy with a 1.0 or higher handicap pick the
sweet part of the task area while the .9 guys are forced to fly out of
the best area to use up task time. Fly upwind/downwind as is usual when
you have a choice and Dave Stevenson will kill you every single day in
the KA6.

This "modern" pilot seemed to do OK when moving to Club at the Worlds.

The success that Tim has had proves, in my opinion, that what we have
works.

The sad part is that not all that many serious contenders for US Team
slots are participating at the national level. I'd estimate about 6 at
Ionia last year with a couple gone to the WGC at the time. When more
top pilots realize this is a way to the "big show",the qualitiy of the
team will improve.
Entries at the Sports Nats is more about the popularity of the site
than other issues, in my opinion. Have Iris and Karl run the contest,
with all they do to make it fun, and it will fill up anywhere, with
somebody crying cause they aren't good enough to get in.

We need to not mess up what we have which is a place for everybody to
fly. As Dick Johnson calls it- the entry and exit class. Run what you
brung works and handicapping anomolies are weeded out By the RC led by
Dave Cole.
When we get Sports to a full contest regularly with 1/2 the field
between .95 and 1.03, we should think about creating a divided class,
but not until then.
Just my opinion.
UH- RC Chair, WGC Club team '01, '02

Gotta disagree just a bit with EY.

No problem UH - disagreement is what good debate is all about. If no
one ever shared their concerns or hopes and dreams, we would all be
poorer for it.

I just wanted to chime in with some of my thoughts as I now see how
dynamic a group of pilots has been created by the creation of the Club
Class in Europe and Australia, and I, selfishly, would like to be a
part of a community like that here in the USA.

In Sports Class, while I feel invited, I also feel like I am a little
bit of a sideshow in my 1969 Libelle. I saw someone say on this thread
that if we applied "Club Class" rules to this years entries at
Parowan, we would only have 24 Club Class ships. Unless I am seriously
confused on what a "club class" ship is, I count only 6 potential
club class type entry applications by ships of no-flaps and less than
1.03 handicap!!!

I can not help but believe that many owners of "club class" type
ships are intimidated by the field of GLIDERS at Sports Nats and at the
larger Sports Regionals, rather than the field of pilots. Forexample
look at Wayne Paul's post inthis thread. I for one have analyzed things
and can not hope to be FULLY competitive at Parowan in my Std. Libelle.


Sure I can take her and I could/would do just fine. But anyone going
racing for the national team or a national title is not content with
the expectation of doing "just fine" even before the first start
takes place. So I am going to a different ship - one with a better
(i.e. more favorable handicap for the conditions I will be flying in).
IMHO, that is not "run what you brung" but I will be doing it
because that is how the game works.

If sports class were truly "fair" then I posit that a great many
more people might be interested in "running what they brung." Maybe
I am wrong, but maybe I am right. How do we know unless we try it out?

Recent history shows that you need a
LOW performance glider to excel in the Sports Class.
Why? Because it lets the guy with a 1.0 or higher handicap pick the
sweet part of the task area while the .9 guys are forced to fly out
of
the best area to use up task time. Fly upwind/downwind as is usual
when
you have a choice and Dave Stevenson will kill you every single day
in
the KA6.

No quibbling with DS as a pilot. He is a TERRIFIC pilot and great
competitor in Sports Class.

But I do quibble with a system that lets a great pilot find an
overvalued (handicap-wise) glider, and use it to bludgeon the field of
many equally talented pilots. This was seen by many of us in Sports
Class at Lubbock in 2002. I just cannot believe that DS so completely
and thoroughly outclassed the second place competitior (E9) on pilot
skills alone.

If the handicap for the Cobra was correct, then why was the handicap
immediately and greatly devalued the next year. Dave played it
correctly from the start - he worked the rules to ensure his chance
at victory. Who knows, he probably would have won with the Cobra's
handicap of 1.16 and not 1.25. But it would have been a MUCH tighter
race that I would like to have flown in.

If the general perception is out there that this can be done, then
there may also be a perception that other ships are equally
favored/disfavored. If I am an aspiring racing pilot who has any dreams
of being competitive, then I might think better of entering a contest
where I start from behind on Day1.

This "modern" pilot seemed to do OK when moving to Club at the
Worlds.

No questioning your racing skills, UH. The better pilot, flying
whatever ship, will always tend to outclass the less good pilot. But if
your ability to purchase or obtain a relatively or perceived more
competitive ship determines who will and will not race, then all racing
pilots in this country and the pilots we send to Club Worlds out of
Sports Class are the poorer for it.


The success that Tim has had proves, in my opinion, that what we have
works.


Yes it works, but could it be better for a certain portion of our
membership that would love to race but are intimidated from
participating; That portion of our membership that we pay lipservice to
wanting to attract to racing, but do very little to encourage - the
young, the new, the old on more limited means, etc.

Yes adding another class to the mix could dilute things for contest
attendance. However, anyone who thinks running even a fully subscribed
contest is lucrative or even "economic" clearly has not run one. We
need to grow the size of our pie rather than restricting any growth to
within existing boundaries. Maybe adding another class would give
incentive to actually hold more co-hosted contests for those classes
without a dedicated national - say a Junior Nationals or a Women's
Nationals.


The sad part is that not all that many serious contenders for US Team
slots are participating at the national level. I'd estimate about 6
at
Ionia last year with a couple gone to the WGC at the time. When more
top pilots realize this is a way to the "big show",the qualitiy of
the
team will improve.

Wholeheartedly agreed. The attempt to freeze out the top pilots from
the club class team a few years ago was riduculous. The rest of the
world sends its BEST pilots to club class worlds, why shouldn't we.
But I am still not convinced we truly send our best pilots to club
class when very few "sports" class pilots venture from East to West
Coast sites in search of the team spots, but rather most comepetitors
fly Sports Class as a warm-up for "their" nationals (i.e. Std, 15m,
Open, 18m) and when it is in their back yard.

Entries at the Sports Nats is more about the popularity of the site
than other issues, in my opinion. Have Iris and Karl run the contest,
with all they do to make it fun, and it will fill up anywhere, with
somebody crying cause they aren't good enough to get in.

Absolutely True. Good, Well-run contest at "friendly" sites will
always filled up, often with very talented pilots. Sorry for the less
well ranked pilots, but that is just the way things work. It is a
Nationals after all.

We need to not mess up what we have which is a place for everybody to
fly. As Dick Johnson calls it- the entry and exit class. Run what you
brung works and handicapping anomolies are weeded out By the RC led
by
Dave Cole.

I would never advocate "messing" anything up. Keep the Sports
Class! Don't change a thing. I like taking my Libelle to Sports Class
events where I really must tototally and completely maximize my flying
and the ship to get a good finish. I get challenged and I become a
better racing pilot for the experience. Both here and in Europe, this
is one of the only places in our sport where there can be the
confluence of newbies and the top names. Other countries run Sports and
Club Class championships - often countries much smaller than ours.
Why not us?

When we get Sports to a full contest regularly with 1/2 the field
between .95 and 1.03, we should think about creating a divided class,
but not until then.

We have a bit of a chicken or the egg problem here. I may be wrong, but
when I look at a western contest site like Parowan, and see 27's,
V2's, etc., etc. it gives me pause to bringing my Libelle. I wonder
how many other pilots are in a similar situation? If all you own is a
PW-5 or a Russia, and/or you are of limited means, then that is what
you take or you do not go - assuming you want to be
"competitive". Pilots can't have the option of Club Class until
the participation is there, but we do not have the participation, in
part I beleive, because of the current system of Sports Class. What to
do?

One more point for possible discussion:

I have heard the argument that the Open Class is kept alive here in the
US in part because of the effect shuttering the class would have on big
winged glider values. If we are willing to protect such a relatively
minor portion of our pilot's turf, then why can't we add Club Class
and immediately bolster the glider values of many more club class type
ships? Aren't owners of club class ships like mine owed a little
protection of our hopes and dreams, not to mention our glider values?
Or must I be limited to buying into "real racing" only by getting a
"new" ship? The rest of the world seems to think differently from
us here in the USA. While the rest of the world is often wrong on many
things, they might just be right on this one...

Respectfully,
EY

Just my opinion.
UH- RC Chair, WGC Club team '01, '02