A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Phoebus A as a first glider



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old April 16th 18, 10:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 9:29:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I have been thinking about the advisability of buying a 50 year old Glider and several things came to mind. There were 3, first generation ships, Diamont, Phoebus and 301 Libelle. Two of them used balsa wood wing core and the other didn't use any core at all (Diamont 16.5 & 18) and one used a wooden box spar (Phoebus). The next generation of sailplanes didn't employ any of these construction methods! The next generation (ASW-20, etc.) was built about 40% stronger after the LBA changed the strength requirements for their sailplanes. As an example, the Phoebus uses 3 layers of 4 ounce cloth in their fuselage (and wings) while the 20 uses a minimum of 3 layers (or more) of 6 ounce cloth in their fuselage. The question becomes, Is the Phoebus built strong enough? Yes, but the integrity of the wooden based box spar must not be compromised! What could compromise the integrity of the box spar? A ground loop that resulted in a split seam for a few feet. Pilot probably got out and was relieved to see the T tail still standing proud. He probably made a careful inspection, looking for any cracks and decided all's well, that end's well, right? A split seam in the box-spar can't be seen from the outside! Something else that could weaken a box-spar is wood rot, can't see that from the outside either. We know the ship has been stored in the rafters for 15 years, but how was it flown and stored before that? The ship may not be a bargain at any price!
I've been remembering the tragic crash of BG-12, that a new pilots dad had perched for his son. The kid made a high speed pass, like he'd seen the big guys do, then pulled on the flaps (probably going too fast), the inboard hinge of one flap gave way and took out the drag spar! That allowed the wing to twist and one wing departed the aircraft! Wood rot was found in the drag spar!
Buyer be ware!
JJ


When and where did the accident occur (I found 3 fatals involving BG12s, and none involved a high-speed, low-pass).

Tom
  #22  
Old April 16th 18, 11:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,550
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-4, wrote:
... There were 3, first generation ships, Diamont, Phoebus and 301 Libelle.


What is the spin warning/entry behavior of these first generation ships and does that matter for a new pilot?
  #23  
Old April 16th 18, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
6PK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 242
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:57:24 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 9:29:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I have been thinking about the advisability of buying a 50 year old Glider and several things came to mind. There were 3, first generation ships, Diamont, Phoebus and 301 Libelle. Two of them used balsa wood wing core and the other didn't use any core at all (Diamont 16.5 & 18) and one used a wooden box spar (Phoebus). The next generation of sailplanes didn't employ any of these construction methods! The next generation (ASW-20, etc.) was built about 40% stronger after the LBA changed the strength requirements for their sailplanes. As an example, the Phoebus uses 3 layers of 4 ounce cloth in their fuselage (and wings) while the 20 uses a minimum of 3 layers (or more) of 6 ounce cloth in their fuselage. The question becomes, Is the Phoebus built strong enough? Yes, but the integrity of the wooden based box spar must not be compromised! What could compromise the integrity of the box spar? A ground loop that resulted in a split seam for a few feet. Pilot probably got out and was relieved to see the T tail still standing proud. He probably made a careful inspection, looking for any cracks and decided all's well, that end's well, right? A split seam in the box-spar can't be seen from the outside! Something else that could weaken a box-spar is wood rot, can't see that from the outside either. We know the ship has been stored in the rafters for 15 years, but how was it flown and stored before that? The ship may not be a bargain at any price!
I've been remembering the tragic crash of BG-12, that a new pilots dad had perched for his son. The kid made a high speed pass, like he'd seen the big guys do, then pulled on the flaps (probably going too fast), the inboard hinge of one flap gave way and took out the drag spar! That allowed the wing to twist and one wing departed the aircraft! Wood rot was found in the drag spar!
Buyer be ware!
JJ


When and where did the accident occur (I found 3 fatals involving BG12s, and none involved a high-speed, low-pass).

Tom


Unfortunately it did happen at Tehachapi, Ca
  #24  
Old April 16th 18, 11:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Phoebus A as a first glider


When and where did the accident occur (I found 3 fatals involving BG12s, and none involved a high-speed, low-pass).

Tom


It was several years ago at Mountain Valley Airport in Tehachapi. I remember reading about it in Soaring, but I don't remember the exact year.
  #25  
Old April 17th 18, 12:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 15:38:16 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

What is the spin warning/entry behavior of these first generation ships
and does that matter for a new pilot?

As someone who learnt to fly in the UK, I'd say that spin awareness and
recovery matters for every pilot, and especially for a new soloed one,
because he's likely to be a bit more ham-fisted than a more experienced
pilot. Over here you can't go solo without having demonstrated spin
recognition and recovery to your instructor and gotten his sign-off.

And, to make sure that remains a current skill, we repeat that exercise
every year, along with failed winch launch exercises, before the summer
soaring season starts. No launch failure and spin sign-offs, no solo
flying until you have them.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #26  
Old April 17th 18, 12:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

The accident occurred on August 26, 2000 at Mountain Valley Gliderport in Tehachapi, California and the glider was listed as a CABLE-BREIGLER BG-12BD.

Very sad.

Dan Armstrong
"DAN"
  #27  
Old April 17th 18, 12:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 394
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

Steve,
Page 57 of the 1997 SSA Sailplane Directory says; "The 16.5 meter Diamond built by FFA was the first all glass fiber production sailplane, not using balsa or other wood sandwich between the fiberglass layers". Have you seen a core inside the 16.5 wing? The 15 meter wings were built by Glasflugel and did use balsa cores.
JJ
  #28  
Old April 17th 18, 01:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 4:20:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The accident occurred on August 26, 2000 at Mountain Valley Gliderport in Tehachapi, California and the glider was listed as a CABLE-BREIGLER BG-12BD.

Very sad.

Dan Armstrong
"DAN"


I couldn't find it because the accident glider was a BG-12BD and that isn't an NTSB search option (a persistent problem with the NTSB search query). The NTSB found that the pilot exceeded the flap-extended speed limit (no mention was made of wood rot). Wood rot is a serious concern; I once convinced my partners in a Citabria 7KCAB to sell the plane because wood rot had been found in some aircraft and ours was tied down outside. But this can be inspected for, so it isn't a deal breaker IF a proper inspection is done.

On the subject of high-speed, low passes: I have discouraged these for a long time. Part of my rational is it encourages low time pilots to try to emulate the maneuver who may not have the skill level to pull it off. And there is not a good reason for doing it to begin with.

Tom
  #29  
Old April 17th 18, 01:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 5:24:00 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 4:20:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The accident occurred on August 26, 2000 at Mountain Valley Gliderport in Tehachapi, California and the glider was listed as a CABLE-BREIGLER BG-12BD.

Very sad.

Dan Armstrong
"DAN"


I couldn't find it because the accident glider was a BG-12BD and that isn't an NTSB search option (a persistent problem with the NTSB search query). The NTSB found that the pilot exceeded the flap-extended speed limit (no mention was made of wood rot). Wood rot is a serious concern; I once convinced my partners in a Citabria 7KCAB to sell the plane because wood rot had been found in some aircraft and ours was tied down outside. But this can be inspected for, so it isn't a deal breaker IF a proper inspection is done.

On the subject of high-speed, low passes: I have discouraged these for a long time. Part of my rational is it encourages low time pilots to try to emulate the maneuver who may not have the skill level to pull it off. And there is not a good reason for doing it to begin with.

Tom


Here is the report:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA
  #30  
Old April 17th 18, 01:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,076
Default Phoebus A as a first glider

On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 6:48:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Steve,
Page 57 of the 1997 SSA Sailplane Directory says; "The 16.5 meter Diamond built by FFA was the first all glass fiber production sailplane, not using balsa or other wood sandwich between the fiberglass layers". Have you seen a core inside the 16.5 wing? The 15 meter wings were built by Glasflugel and did use balsa cores.
JJ


Hi, JJ. Yes, I have seen the foam core inside the Diamant wings on several 16.5 meter variants. Also have the repair manual. Section 4 page 6 shows a cross section of the wing skin. Agree that the wings on serial 1-10 were built by Glasflugel and are balsa core. But, the 16.5 and 18 meter are foam core. The key in the statement you quoted is "...balsa or other wood sandwiched between the fiberglass layers." PVC foam isn't wood. So, the Diamant became the first "all plastic" sailplane. It used another "plastic" as its core.

Cool history collected here on the Diamants.

http://www.b2streamlines.com/FFADiamant/index.html

Steve Leonard
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Phoebus c and Mistral C ND Soaring 0 January 21st 15 04:54 PM
Phoebus C glider project available Mike Entwisle[_2_] Soaring 0 September 12th 12 10:40 AM
WTB phoebus A or B rudder shkdriver Soaring 0 March 9th 12 04:46 AM
Phoebus C glider and parts for sale - low prices Gerry Soaring 2 June 26th 09 01:21 PM
Phoebus B AFSax Soaring 2 August 18th 05 08:51 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.