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Safety against commercial pressure?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 13th 18, 06:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 7
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

I prefer to start this new thread rather than to pollute the original, related to the recent fatal Teton crash. I have some reservations concerning this posting:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....w/UPoMSUMjBgAJ

"My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture."

If "many would not venture" in some conditions, I very strongly doubt it to be sensible to give a joyride to an ignorant customer in those same conditions. Marginal conditions can be killers. Bowing to commercial pressure in these conditions is taking a big risk. I'm glad not every commercial operation takes this kind of risk.

I'm not saying that this was a factor in the Teton crash, I have no idea what the conditions were that day / at that location. It's the general idea of "It's normal to take risks if it's for the money" I find deeply disturbing.
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  #2  
Old June 13th 18, 12:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 277
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:43:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I prefer to start this new thread rather than to pollute the original, related to the recent fatal Teton crash. I have some reservations concerning this posting:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....w/UPoMSUMjBgAJ

"My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture."

If "many would not venture" in some conditions, I very strongly doubt it to be sensible to give a joyride to an ignorant customer in those same conditions. Marginal conditions can be killers. Bowing to commercial pressure in these conditions is taking a big risk. I'm glad not every commercial operation takes this kind of risk.

I'm not saying that this was a factor in the Teton crash, I have no idea what the conditions were that day / at that location. It's the general idea of "It's normal to take risks if it's for the money" I find deeply disturbing.


Same as airline pilots, bus drivers, and your surgeon rushing the job cause he has several more scheduled today. Don't like being human? Stay in your cave and pretend you aren't one.
  #3  
Old June 13th 18, 01:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,681
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:43:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I prefer to start this new thread rather than to pollute the original, related to the recent fatal Teton crash. I have some reservations concerning this posting:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....w/UPoMSUMjBgAJ

"My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture."

If "many would not venture" in some conditions, I very strongly doubt it to be sensible to give a joyride to an ignorant customer in those same conditions. Marginal conditions can be killers. Bowing to commercial pressure in these conditions is taking a big risk. I'm glad not every commercial operation takes this kind of risk.

I'm not saying that this was a factor in the Teton crash, I have no idea what the conditions were that day / at that location. It's the general idea of "It's normal to take risks if it's for the money" I find deeply disturbing.


My experience is that rides are the second activity to stop, after student solo flying.
UH
  #4  
Old June 13th 18, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SF
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Posts: 191
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

We generally stop rides anytime conditions are marginal. There is no up side to giving a "thrill" ride to some one that's going to get sick, scared or uncomfortable during the ride.
  #5  
Old June 13th 18, 04:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 910
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

I wrote the first post as I really know and understand what ride pilots do for our sport. NOTHING was mentioned nor implied that there is a safety versus commercial pressure. Just the opposite, if you ding an airplane you have stopped your revenue stream. Perhaps there are days when you choose not to fly because it is very turbulent , high x-winds, rainy.... choose your own less fun. The ride pilots fly those days, safely (I know of only two rides that have had accidents including the one in Tetons). These pilots are good because they fly in most weather and they fly 5-11 rides a day.
I will say it again, my respect to all the ride pilots and CFI's out there flying daily in conditions many private owns choose not to fly!

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:43:24 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I prefer to start this new thread rather than to pollute the original, related to the recent fatal Teton crash. I have some reservations concerning this posting:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....w/UPoMSUMjBgAJ

"My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture."

If "many would not venture" in some conditions, I very strongly doubt it to be sensible to give a joyride to an ignorant customer in those same conditions. Marginal conditions can be killers. Bowing to commercial pressure in these conditions is taking a big risk. I'm glad not every commercial operation takes this kind of risk.

I'm not saying that this was a factor in the Teton crash, I have no idea what the conditions were that day / at that location. It's the general idea of "It's normal to take risks if it's for the money" I find deeply disturbing.

  #6  
Old June 13th 18, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 3,123
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

I would say that a lot of the time, maybe most of the time, that the
private owners don't venture up is because the soaring forecast does not
support their goals for the day.* A commercial ride can be given on a
non-soaring day when the lift is marginal to none and the cross country
forecast is dismal.* The commercial passenger still wants to experience
gliding flight and the poor soaring forecast will make for a more
comfortable ride to the inexperienced passenger.* I don't recall ever
seeing a commercial ride launch into conditions that could be considered
"dangerous".* The safety of the passenger is always paramount.

On 6/12/2018 11:43 PM, wrote:
I prefer to start this new thread rather than to pollute the original, related to the recent fatal Teton crash. I have some reservations concerning this posting:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....w/UPoMSUMjBgAJ

"My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture."

If "many would not venture" in some conditions, I very strongly doubt it to be sensible to give a joyride to an ignorant customer in those same conditions. Marginal conditions can be killers. Bowing to commercial pressure in these conditions is taking a big risk. I'm glad not every commercial operation takes this kind of risk.

I'm not saying that this was a factor in the Teton crash, I have no idea what the conditions were that day / at that location. It's the general idea of "It's normal to take risks if it's for the money" I find deeply disturbing.


--
Dan, 5J
  #7  
Old June 13th 18, 05:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 862
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

Agreed, a crappy ride (bumps, swearing from the backseat, etc.) can KILL the enthusiasm of a noob.
We would rather have them walk away unfulfilled rather than them have a bad ride.

Crappy Soaring days (no lift, no ridge) can be good for rides. Nice smooth ride, no drama, cold slide from release.
If you have lift, go for slight flight extension, don't work hard and keep things smooth, watch your ride. If you see them get tense, Frikkin back off.

Worst "ride" I ever did was at a Snowbird contest a long time ago. Asked a low time glider pilot to ride as ballast and as a learning experience.
Surface winds, 20+, winds at 1000', 50-60MPH.
We released upwind after the second hard rope snap.
Passenger learned what you could fly in, also learned why we don't do it (done in a 2-33).
I canceled the day based on what I saw (I was also CD that year).

No, don't fly rides in crappy/rough weather with nonpilots, if you misread weather and get caught, try to smoothly get out. I would hazard a guess most ride operations around the world have a similar outlook.

Doing rides is slightly gaining income. Mostly it is trying to hook new students. Thus, do things that are more likely to keep them coming back.
  #8  
Old June 13th 18, 11:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 123
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

A private owner(s) might choose to not fly not because it dangerous but because there isn't sufficient lift to make it worth the effort. 5000' tows with a glide back to the ground are not uncommon at commercial ops.

Or a private pilot with low experience may not fly because conditions are beyond his limited skill set. Those same conditions may pose no issues for an experienced commercial pilot.

While I can see how one might read into that post that commercial ops take excessive risks because of the money, I feel that's a bit of a leap. Just my 2 cents.
  #9  
Old June 14th 18, 12:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 910
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 3:25:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
A private owner(s) might choose to not fly not because it dangerous but because there isn't sufficient lift to make it worth the effort. 5000' tows with a glide back to the ground are not uncommon at commercial ops.

Or a private pilot with low experience may not fly because conditions are beyond his limited skill set. Those same conditions may pose no issues for an experienced commercial pilot.

While I can see how one might read into that post that commercial ops take excessive risks because of the money, I feel that's a bit of a leap. Just my 2 cents.


Wow, tough crowd. We just lost a commercial ride pilot, my first post was to honor ride pilots everywhere, I know what they do. I have walked a mile in their shoes. The CFI/ride pilots fly everyday the shop is open, doesn't make any difference what the lift is, the wind (largely) or most of the things that keep the private owners on the ground. Doesn't make any difference if it will be a "fun" day or a challenging day. They fly because a ride walks in the door puts down the money, maybe says something like "I want a flight like Bruno posts on YouTube." They fly these rides safely and return the passengers to their families. I am extremely sorry we lost a pilot and her fare and I was just honoring her and the others like her.

I will say it one last time, I certainly have much respect for the CFI's and commercial pilots out there that help keep gliding operations open so us private owners can fly. If you feel you need to judge me for this respect, don't bother, get your commercial and go fly rides for year or two.
  #10  
Old June 14th 18, 03:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom[_21_]
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Posts: 27
Default Safety against commercial pressure?

Such a tough crowd. Words can't express our thoughts at the loss of one of our tribe.

Regards, Tom
 




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