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  #21  
Old January 10th 04, 01:28 AM
Rocky
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"Dr. J Dana Eckart" wrote in message du...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart wrote:

On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
to hold the stick steady.


WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.


Dr J.
In working machines we often didn't have time to remove the duals, or
it was just too much trouble to do so. I've always guarded the
controls carefully when I had ANYONE sitting where they could reach
the active controls. Yes it can get hairy at times but I've never had
one taken away from me nor ever lost control of one due to someone
else moving the controls accidently or on purpose. Got roughly 8000
hours working in rotorcraft spread out since 1967.
Flyinrock
  #22  
Old January 10th 04, 11:27 AM
Bart
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WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.


Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
inflation.

Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
ribbing or two since then.

Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
not good.

Bart

  #23  
Old January 10th 04, 08:49 PM
LM Scott
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"Bart" wrote in message
...


WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a

non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was

told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in

that
seat is qualified to use them.


Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
inflation.

Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
ribbing or two since then.

Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
not good.

Bart

I sure see your point Bart. Our local pilot/owner is an A&P which
probably explains his ability to fly a piston helo for fun since he can do
the maintenance himself. Whenever he flys a passenger for fun he still
leaves the controls in both middle and left seat since it's probably more
trouble to remove them and possibly more dangerous too. I was intently
watching the cyclic and pedal movement during my flight around the patch
which after the stories I''ve heard here probably worried the pilot to no
end. He asked me in a a deadly serious tone to not touch anythingG Of
course all I wanted to do was get a visual clue of just how much or little
the controls were moved in flight and compare it to my limited time as a
fixed wing passenger. Thanks to all of you for telling about some
wonderful and scary flying experiences! Larry


  #24  
Old January 12th 04, 02:29 PM
Dr. J Dana Eckart
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:27:30 -0500, Bart wrote:

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.


Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all.


Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
[I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
to do the removal/installation?

--
J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be
Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think
| it couldn't be worse lack imagination.
  #25  
Old January 12th 04, 02:55 PM
Bart
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My flight manual does not specifically state that removal is prohibited
or allowed. The FARS state which activities may be performed by a pilot,
and if I remember correctly they disallow alteration of a flight
control. I'm not 100% certain, but my interpretation would be that no
matter how easy it is to remove them or how common the practice of
it being done by a pilot, it legally requires an A&P.

Bart

Dr. J Dana Eckart wrote:
Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
[I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
to do the removal/installation?


  #26  
Old January 16th 04, 05:14 AM
Stan Gosnell
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"Dr. J Dana Eckart" wrote in
u:

Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the
PIC. [I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an
A&P to do the removal/installation?

The general rule is, if it takes a tool to remove it, an A&P is required.
Especially for flight controls. Improper work on flight controls can kill
you in a heartbeat. Often less.

--
Regards,

Stan

  #27  
Old January 16th 04, 11:58 PM
Bob
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If the procedure for removing dual controls is in the flight manual (which
it isn't) then it's in the maintenance manual which is intended for the
authorized maintenance "entity" be that a repair station or a mechanic with
at least an airframe rating. This goes for aircraft registered in the
"normal" category. "Experimentalists" as we know are in their own world.


  #29  
Old January 18th 04, 08:32 PM
Bob
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Yes, definately, the weight & balance section is definately and area that an
inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it or not is
a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are concerned I'm
not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you are asking. Few
weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that if the
check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that that
aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently removed,
then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to be known in
order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on most aircraft,
that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT it is a required
(and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation on installation and
removal after the "as weighed" CG has been determined. Pilots make weight
and balance recalculations all the time. My comments earlier in this thread
were regarding WHO is authorized to install and remove the duals. Anyone
performing the task must be following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure?
As I said, it's probably in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance
procedure. Mechanics are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B
also. There would be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this
helped!
Bob


  #30  
Old January 20th 04, 12:47 AM
Dual Controls
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Bob wrote,
Yes, definitely, the weight & balance section is definitely and area
that an inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it
or not is a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are
concerned I'm not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you
are asking.

Hi Bob
Not asking any questions, just responding with what I
recalled on the operations of removing dual flight controls.

Few weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that
if the check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that
that aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently
removed, then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to
be known in order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on
most aircraft, that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT
it is a required (and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation
on installation and removal after the "as weighed" CG has been
determined. Pilots make weight and balance recalculations all the time.
My comments earlier in this thread were regarding WHO is authorized to
install and remove the duals. Anyone performing the task must be
following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure? As I said, it's probably
in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance procedure. Mechanics
are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B also. There would
be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this helped!
Bob

Yes you are correct, it takes an a/p to sign off the installation.
The check boxs I was referring to was sep up in our flight manuals
either on the equipment list ( items a/c was weighed with ) or form C.
There was an IN and Out box with the weight and arm of the item listed.
Remove an item and you check the out box and recalculate the W & B ,
reverse for the installation.
You should be able to find the procedure under chapter 27 ( flight
controls ) in the maintenance manual.
As you say this procedure is usually neglected about as much as removing
the doors which also weigh little but to be legal should be figured into
the W & B.
Roy

 




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