oct 2 report to members

So that my friends among soaring, who know that I can be very outspoken at
times, do not think that 5-BG is me. I will tell you that, I sign all my
posts, and I am not one to go off half cocked and not list my name. If I say
it, I will say it to your face.

With that said, I also do not agree with a full house cleaning of the SSA
EXComm. They decided to do this by themselves, so I guess that we will all
have to live with it. BUT, anyone who knows these people know that they were
duped bigtime while trying to do a thankless job. I have watched over the
years as Diane and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the
world team, and to better soaring as a whole. To take blanket shots at her
now is just without education, or common respect enough to get to know her
and the rest of the EXCOMM for that matter. I REPEAT what I said earlier.
Tone it down, and let them do their jobs. Every single one of you that has
been so short and quick to critisize, had better have their names on for
director the next election. Otherwise, I second what Frank Reid said, in
just as strong of language, and I will not be afraid to say that to your
face!!!! Shame on all of you!!!!!

Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
oups.com...

Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!

Come on chicken speak up or shut up!

Warmest Regards,

Frank Reid

Clipped from the nameless wonder....

I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
the ground.

Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
explanation of the desire to remain faceless.


I did just that.....
SLAPP suit

A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
which a corporation or developer sues an organization
in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
the environment--for example, local residents who are
petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
interference with the developer's business interests.
Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
government.

So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
come knocking at your door if you come up with the
courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
we speak

How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?

Airjunkie wrote:
Children, SHhhhhh!!!! The solution is to join forces with the well
established and solid hang gliding and paragliding community to form
the United States Soaring Association. The hang glider guys would beat
the crap out of all you old duffs and straighten this mess out.
Waddaya think of that?

Amazing, isn't it? Those hippy freaks flinging themselves from mountain
tops with rag wings have a more professional organization, have a better
quality magazine, member liability insurance, site preservation system,
and (BGA like) effective rating system, than the sailplane guys.

Tony V
SSA 861766
USHPA 8671 (yeah, four digits :-( :-) )
(just so I won't be accused of not using my real identity :-) )

to brian glick and frank reid and others.

There are two possible reasons that I can see for your fixation on the signature to posts.
1. you are trying to divert the discussion from its essence and to make the poster(me) the issue. A tried and proven Washington political tactic that does not work.
2, you are truly ignorant of the tradition of anomoninity that exists in the UNITED STATES.

I can do nothing if you fall into the first camp, but can offer a reasoned discussion of the tradition that exists within the United States that encourages and protects free and anonymous speech. read on if you choose to be enlightened. if your motive is to divert, hit delete now.

Within our country ( USA) there has evolved a tradition, that is protected, which encourages anonymous information to be disseminated. Whether you be a FOX watcher or a NY TIMES reader, your news is often derived from UNNAMED HIGH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS, or unnamed elected officials, or unnamed government functionaries who speak on condition of remaining unnamed. It is the reporters job to verify the accuracy of the information, not to reveal the name.
Bob Woodward brought down the Nixon administration with the information supplied by DEEP THROAT. History is replete with many many instances of unnamed sources blowing the whistle on government wrongdoing.
WHILE I do NOT condone the leaking of legitimately classified national security information, as this is a criminal offense, the anonymous leaking of information is a widely practiced art of national and local politics. Overclassification ( read adjourning to administrative session)) is also a practiced art of a government that is seeking to hide information from the public. Likewise of a board that is seeking to control a situation.

Bush hates unauthorized leaks, but makes liberal use of deep background discussions between high officials ( such as dick cheney) to get a message out . no names are attached.. does that make the information invalid?

The US Senate has a rule which permits a Senator to place an ANONYMOUS HOLD on a bill or appointment. Nothing will happen until the hold is removed and the senator's name is not made public. This is an old tradition and has a real basis in logic.
I could go on and on, but the point is that the IDEAS and opinions are what should be subject to debate. Adding a name is basically irrelevant unless one wants to enhance an argument by evoking an association to a specific name.

There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
1. He may be a sitting judge.
2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.

NONE of these ( and many more) reasons add or subtract one little bit from the IDEAS, and OPINIONS presented by someone who exercises his right to remain anonymous. You retain the right to hit the delete button. it is a free country.

BUT be clear, seeking to divert the discussion does absolutely NOTHING towards resolving the problem or to clear the tracks of the train wreck that is in progress. Your obsession with who I am and not with my thoughts, opinions and cited facts is a clear indication that you seek to protect the establishment by diverting the conversation.
If you have learned anything from recent current events it should be that the facts and ideas that are presented anonymously follow a separate track from the discussion of who divulged the information. In the long run, it matters little who blows the whistle on government abuse of authority, it is the national discussion of the abuse that matters. The national discussion of NSA eavesdropping, of CIA secret prisons, Of homeland security regulations, of giving up individual rights towards the goal of counterterrorism of many other issues will be resolved at the polls very soon. unnamed leakers and off the record opinions play a big roll in the outcome. Both parties seek political advantage and use unnamed sources.

we are discussing abuse. it does not matter who I am. it is the discussion of a tradition of abuse that has evolved within the ssa among the INSIDERS that is in question. It is the discussion of how to change the organization to make it more relevant to the general membership that matters.
You mention that the chair and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the national team. That is a nice project. it is, however not relevant to my interests. Was her devotion to this task such that other projects were shortchanged? was I asked as a member if I approved of this project? It is my clear view that the "insiders who run the show" are committed to a set of values which may be diverging from that of the general membership.

So challenge my facts, disagree with my opinions, but park the bull**** attacks on me for not signing my name. As I said, that is either a transparent diversionary tactic, or ignorance.

a concerned ssa member.






"Brian Glick" wrote in message ink.net...
So that my friends among soaring, who know that I can be very outspoken at
times, do not think that 5-BG is me. I will tell you that, I sign all my
posts, and I am not one to go off half cocked and not list my name. If I say
it, I will say it to your face.

With that said, I also do not agree with a full house cleaning of the SSA
EXComm. They decided to do this by themselves, so I guess that we will all
have to live with it. BUT, anyone who knows these people know that they were
duped bigtime while trying to do a thankless job. I have watched over the
years as Diane and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the
world team, and to better soaring as a whole. To take blanket shots at her
now is just without education, or common respect enough to get to know her
and the rest of the EXCOMM for that matter. I REPEAT what I said earlier.
Tone it down, and let them do their jobs. Every single one of you that has
been so short and quick to critisize, had better have their names on for
director the next election. Otherwise, I second what Frank Reid said, in
just as strong of language, and I will not be afraid to say that to your
face!!!! Shame on all of you!!!!!

Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA

"Frank Reid" wrote in message
oups.com...

Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!

Come on chicken speak up or shut up!

Warmest Regards,

Frank Reid

to stewart kissel
"How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?
They raise issues for discussion among reasonable people who are interested in the issues.
"Stewart Kissel" wrote in message ...
Clipped from the nameless wonder....

I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
the ground.

Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
explanation of the desire to remain faceless.


I did just that.....
SLAPP suit

A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
which a corporation or developer sues an organization
in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
the environment--for example, local residents who are
petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
interference with the developer's business interests.
Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
government.

So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
come knocking at your door if you come up with the
courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
we speak

How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?

Stewart

My point exactly. This individual may have some very valid points, and I
agree with some of them. He has absolutely no means to get his points heard
or considered by blogging them out here without courage to allow someone to
respond. All of the anonomous "leaks" he refers to in his earlier post are
indeed true, but those people have a whole lot to lose, and nothing to gain
in the long run. The amount of money and\or power abuse that happens in
national government needs many more leaks. This situation does not even hold
a candle to his examples. I also think that the critical point he makes
about "insiders" is just bull****. I will quit responding to anything he
says, because he insults people that he has not a clue about, and does not
have the guts to tell them who he is so they can personally addess his
concerns. I know many of them, and they would be happy to address his
concerns as well. Enough said. Now stear this discussion back to what
matters, REAL SOLUTIONS, and not more baseless accusations and innuendo!!!
Be a part of the solution, not the problem!!! And Stewart.....that was not
aimed at you!

As I always do
SIGNED......Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA


"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Clipped from the nameless wonder....

I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
the ground.

Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
explanation of the desire to remain faceless.


I did just that.....
SLAPP suit

A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
which a corporation or developer sues an organization
in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
the environment--for example, local residents who are
petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
interference with the developer's business interests.
Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
government.

So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
come knocking at your door if you come up with the
courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
we speak

How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?

This enduring topic on the recent problems with the SSA has reminded me
of the short but insightful book "The Dog Poop Initiative" by Kirk
Weisler. In the book, Mr. Weisler describes different types of people:

Poopers - those that leave behind messes for others to deal with.
Pointers - those that spend all their time calling attention to the
mess but do nothing to clean it up.
Scoopers - those that just pitch in and get the mess cleaned up.

While the anonymous 5-BG could still prove me wrong, his/her posts have
given me cause to categorize 5-BG as a Pointer. Because of this, I am
one one those that just ignore the posts based on author alone. Too
bad, because that is probably the opposite of what 5-BG wants.

Horst
L33

Pete dot dot dot,

What you said to me is Bla Bla Bla Bla I'm still a chicken**** gutless
coward like 5BG who still has no balls and will not even sign your
posts. You say "everyone is anonymous". Maybe the next Excom should
be the same way. I'm sure you would not whine over that. You and 5BG
are gutles wonders who are the best examples of what members of any
organization should not be. You contribute nothing and bitch when
something goes wrong. Both you and 5BG are hereby charter members of
the CGCC (Chicken**** Gutless Cowards Club). T shirts are available
but I know you won't get one because you have to give your address for
shipping.

The logo of the CGCC is a small yellow chicken peeking out from behind
a monitor with all the lights out. Sounds right to me.

I'm not trying to be a tough guy on the playground, just trying to get
you gutless wonders to identify yourselves. Why is that so hard for
you? Are you really that gutless?

Pete dot dot dot, I not only have a brain, but I also have a name.
Certainly you are missing at least half of the above and probably all.
Come on Pete dot dot dot. How can you live with yourself being such a
coward? You are indeed a charter member of the CGCC.

Until your next chicken **** gutless coward post I say good by.

Warmest Regards to you and other members of the CGCC.

Frank Reid


wrote:
Frank:

"Maybe you and 5BG can form a club of
chicken****, gutless, cowards who mouth off but don't even have the
balls to identify themselves."

This is the internet, Frank, so everyone is anonymous. There's no way
to confirm anyone's ID. In case you haven't noticed, you aren't a
tough guy or the playground bully just because you act the part on the
internet.

You certainly represent what's wrong with message boards, the SSA and
the soaring community.

Instead of reacting to the outrageous SSA email to the membership sent
last night, you go around bashing people who are outraged with the SSA!

Frank, do you have half a BRAIN?!

You attack people who disagree with you such as 5BG even when he
offered a reasoned argument for his point of view.

If you can't take the heat, Frank, get out of the kitchen.

Signed,
You_hurt_my_feelins


Frank Reid wrote:
Pete,

I sorry I did not get your last name. Are you another like 5BG who is
too gutless to sign your posts?
Funny you shoud mention responsibility and accountability and yet you
will not even take responsibility for your own post. You hide behind
Pete... Surely your last name is not "...". That would really be a
stupid last name, huh?

Warmest Regards Coward,

Frank Reid


wrote:
Frank:
"Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"

No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
class or character.

It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
transpired.

The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".

I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.

But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
days.


Frank Reid wrote:
Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!

Come on chicken speak up or shut up!

Warmest Regards,

Frank Reid

5-BG wrote:


A faceless member (5bg)


Or said another way (and a more accurate way) a charter member of the
CGCC (Chicken**** Gutless Cowards Club). 5BG is hereby appointed to be
the ED and the Chair (will not use the word man as it certainly does
not apply to 5BG) of the CGCC Pete dot dot dot has volunteered to be
the CFO. No doubt the new club will have no meetings as the members
would have to show their faces. Rather it will be an internet club
where each can bitch and whine without identifying themselves to each
other. Anyone want to be members of the club? All you have to do is
be too chicken**** and gutless to sign your posts. You instantly
become a member. Step up and join the CGCC. Pete dot dot dot is
waiting to collect the dues.

Warmest Regards.

Frank Reid

5-BG wrote:
.. I am not a contest pilot. I have not been active in any ssa
governance. I am a simple member and have been to many years. one of
the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by the high profile "big
names" who ran this organization for their personal aggrandizement and
ultimately into the ground.

Dear 5-BG,

It's a shame that you discredit your good ideas with the above sorts of
crap. As a person who has, over the last 20 odd years, spent countless
hours on boards of various non-profit organizations for no pay and zero
aggrandizement, I couldn't blame every one of our directors for saying
"f*** this crap" and resigning en mass. With people like you to (not)
pick up the ball, where would that leave us?

Let me remind you of what our "big name" directors are getting out of
this mess:

- The right to spend approximately $2,000 out of their own pockets to
fly to various garden spots around the country for board meetings 3 or
4 times per year.
- The right to give up weekends with family, loved ones, fellow glider
pilots
- The right to spend countless hours not working on their business
interests or leisure time interests while they work on your behalf.

None of the above excuses the board as a whole or any individual on
that board for the current mess. However, at least in my book, it buys
them the right to my continued support and forebearance until all of
the facts are known and proposals for the future are presented.

So, how 'bout it 5-BG? Since you have all the answers, and by your
reckoning the time is right, can we count on seeing your name on the
next BOD ballot? I'll be glad to nominate you.

Regards,
Erik Mann