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#21
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Dylan Smith schrieb:
I think 'fully stalled' in the context of a spin means that both wings exceed the critical angle of attack. That's not to say one wing can't The outer wing isn't necessairily stalled. have a different AoA than the other (IIRC, the critical angle of attack is something on the order of 16 degrees) Even without a thorough knowledge, I dare to believe that this depends on the profile... |
#22
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On Mar 4, 8:59 pm, DR wrote:
Roger wrote: A spin is a fully stalled condition. The doors of a 150 or 172 should be *relatively* easy to open as opposed to being in a high speed spiral. As I understand it, there is a difference in the _extent_ of the stall between the two wings. If that were not the case and both wings were fully stalled (which would require AOA to be ~90 degrees I think) the yaw would decay due to fusilage and tail drag? Cheers Mark thought I'd jump in on this one. I've been a Stearman driver for about 30 years and might have about as much time in "unusual attitudes" as right side up. In a fully developed spin, the door on the outside of the spin will be pretty difficult to open, and in fact it's tough to even move yourself out on that side. the old military training in open cockpits was to bail to the inside of the spin if unrecoverable. so, the quick release pins are in the aerobat to ensure you can get the door off- Centrifigal force and wind presssure will keep it closed otherwise. |
#23
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
I know of one to get out of a decathlon. It was from the back seat no less.
(It helps when the wing has departed and there is a big hole above your head though) Mike john smith wrote: In article . net, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote: Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin. In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at even a few hundred feet. I wouldn't be too positive about those statements. I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria. The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin, the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition. You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear before you pull the D-ring. Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter. I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a Decathlon. |
#24
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close
to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 |
#25
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:36:51 -0400, "Cox" wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Then there's this: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-7233c1bb43f8& (Hope it's not a repost. It's about the 150 rudder bumpers jamming.) Don |
#26
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques |
#27
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques Dudley, Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria? I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out. The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed exiting in case of trouble. Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never. |
#28
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On Mar 23, 1:36 pm, "Cox" wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? And have quick release pins on the doors with the handles -inside- |
#29
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Our procedure was to yank the QR pins and turn the handle;
Champion may well have improved the quick release doors by now. Its been a long time ago for me in the Citabria :-) I would suggest a good look through the POH and a brief from the airplane operator for the current scoop on this. DH john hawkins wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques Dudley, Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria? I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out. The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed exiting in case of trouble. Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never. |
#30
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On 2007-02-28 19:41:14 -0800, john smith said:
In article . net, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote: Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin. In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at even a few hundred feet. I wouldn't be too positive about those statements. I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria. The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin, the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition. You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear before you pull the D-ring. Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter. I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a Decathlon. There was a guy down in Borrego Springs who managed to bail out when his Citabria would not recover. Checking the wreckage later he found the seatbelt from the rear seat had wrapped itself around the stick. He could have sworn he had secured that thing. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
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