A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

"System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet"



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 17th 04, 02:08 PM
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default "System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet"

System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet

The plane, hit near the Iraq-Kuwait border last year, could not
identify itself as friendly, a report says.

By Associated Press

LONDON -- A British military jet shot down by a U.S. missile during
the Iraq war was hit after a failure of the electronic system designed
to identify it as a friendly aircraft, the government said Friday. A
U.S. Patriot missile battery shot down the Tornado GR4A near the
Iraq-Kuwait border on March 23, 2003, killing both crew members. The
jet was returning from a mission over Iraq. Defense Minister Ivor
Caplin said several factors contributed to the fatal mistake,
including a failure of the jet's "identification friend or foe," or
IFF, system. Caplin released a summary of findings by a Royal Air
Force Board of Inquiry that investigated the downing. He said the
"immediate cause" of the accident was the Patriot missile battery that
"misidentified" the Torna do as an enemy "anti-radiation missile"
designed to home in on radar systems. Caplin said other factors
included the "wide classification criteria" for anti-radiation
missiles programmed into the Patriot system. He said the Patriot rules
of engagement were "not sufficiently robust to prevent a friendly
aircraft without a functioning IFF system being classified as an
anti-radiation missile." The RAF report recommended that the IFF
system on each aircraft be checked after takeoff and that the
Tornado's IFF installation should be modified so a cockpit alarm
sounds whenever the IFF system fails. In a statement, the U.S. Central
Command said it concurred that the failure of the plane's IFF system
was at fault. "The investigation board determined that the Patriot
crew fired in perceived self-defense in accordance with existing
procedures and Rules of Engagement," the statement said.
Ads
  #2  
Old May 17th 04, 03:55 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike" wrote in message
om...
System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet

The plane, hit near the Iraq-Kuwait border last year, could not
identify itself as friendly, a report says.

By Associated Press

LONDON -- A British military jet shot down by a U.S. missile during
the Iraq war was hit after a failure of the electronic system designed
to identify it as a friendly aircraft, the government said Friday.


Ouch! ISTR a few Brits around here were quite convinced that the Patriot was
the real culprit in this case, and were rather indignant at the idea of
having to wait until the investigations were completed to get the complete
story. Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?

Brooks

A
U.S. Patriot missile battery shot down the Tornado GR4A near the
Iraq-Kuwait border on March 23, 2003, killing both crew members. The
jet was returning from a mission over Iraq. Defense Minister Ivor
Caplin said several factors contributed to the fatal mistake,
including a failure of the jet's "identification friend or foe," or
IFF, system. Caplin released a summary of findings by a Royal Air
Force Board of Inquiry that investigated the downing. He said the
"immediate cause" of the accident was the Patriot missile battery that
"misidentified" the Torna do as an enemy "anti-radiation missile"
designed to home in on radar systems. Caplin said other factors
included the "wide classification criteria" for anti-radiation
missiles programmed into the Patriot system. He said the Patriot rules
of engagement were "not sufficiently robust to prevent a friendly
aircraft without a functioning IFF system being classified as an
anti-radiation missile." The RAF report recommended that the IFF
system on each aircraft be checked after takeoff and that the
Tornado's IFF installation should be modified so a cockpit alarm
sounds whenever the IFF system fails. In a statement, the U.S. Central
Command said it concurred that the failure of the plane's IFF system
was at fault. "The investigation board determined that the Patriot
crew fired in perceived self-defense in accordance with existing
procedures and Rules of Engagement," the statement said.



  #3  
Old May 17th 04, 05:16 PM
Peter Stickney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"Mike" wrote in message
om...
System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet

The plane, hit near the Iraq-Kuwait border last year, could not
identify itself as friendly, a report says.

By Associated Press

LONDON -- A British military jet shot down by a U.S. missile during
the Iraq war was hit after a failure of the electronic system designed
to identify it as a friendly aircraft, the government said Friday.


Ouch! ISTR a few Brits around here were quite convinced that the Patriot was
the real culprit in this case, and were rather indignant at the idea of
having to wait until the investigations were completed to get the complete
story. Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


What I find intersting is that the Tornado Pilot had now way to know
whether or not the IFF systems were working. You can't very well go
to the "I'm really a friendly but my Transponder's busted" procedure
if you don't know if its not working. It's kind of ironic,
considering teh British preoccupation with safe lanes through the SAMS
& AAA for busted aircraft over the FRG back in the 1980s when Imminent
Nuclear Destruction was something real.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #4  
Old May 17th 04, 08:09 PM
BUFDRVR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter Stickney wrote:

What I find intersting is that the Tornado Pilot had now way to know
whether or not the IFF systems were working.


The IFF malfunction experienced by the GR.1 (based on what I've seen of the
reports so far) would have had the same tragic results in every U.S. airframe
as well. I really don't feel comfortable treading into the specifics, but
needless to say this could have happened to any aircraft experiencing this same
malfunction.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #5  
Old May 17th 04, 11:04 PM
ExpatEgghead
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"Mike" wrote in message
om...
System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet

The plane, hit near the Iraq-Kuwait border last year, could not
identify itself as friendly, a report says.

By Associated Press

LONDON -- A British military jet shot down by a U.S. missile during
the Iraq war was hit after a failure of the electronic system designed
to identify it as a friendly aircraft, the government said Friday.


Ouch! ISTR a few Brits around here were quite convinced that the Patriot

was
the real culprit in this case, and were rather indignant at the idea of
having to wait until the investigations were completed to get the

complete
story. Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


What I find intersting is that the Tornado Pilot had now way to know
whether or not the IFF systems were working. You can't very well go
to the "I'm really a friendly but my Transponder's busted" procedure
if you don't know if its not working. It's kind of ironic,
considering teh British preoccupation with safe lanes through the SAMS
& AAA for busted aircraft over the FRG back in the 1980s when Imminent
Nuclear Destruction was something real.


Yes and no. A total out and the aircrew would know. A mode failure and they
would have to check in more detail. The basic level 1 was working they think
but not level 5.

--
ExpatEgghead
http://expategghead.blogspot.com


  #7  
Old May 18th 04, 04:37 AM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in news:FbidnTOlj-
:

Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


Did you miss the bit about Patriot rules of engagement being
"insufficently robust"? Seems to me that calling for meals of crow is in
bad taste all around here. . . . it was a tragedy, it was war, the two go
hand in hand.


The Patriot had its share of troubles, no doubt. But immediately after it
was announced that the Tornado had gone down, some folks took a "it's the
Patriot, stupid" stance as to assigning the guilt in this case, despite an
early mention of the suspicion that all may have not been right regarding
the aircraft's IFF. Now the chickens have come home to roost. And since you
are so keyed up in still trying to point the fickle finger of fate at the
Patriot in this case, did you miss the part that said: "The investigation
board determined that the Patriot crew fired in perceived self-defense in
accordance with existing procedures and Rules of Engagement"? Yeah, it was a
tragedy--the ROE doubtless contributed to it, too. But those ROE would never
have been invoked had the aircraft had a functional IFF transmitting the
proper code. Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it went
down?

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"



  #8  
Old May 18th 04, 07:03 AM
fudog50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gawd,
20 years ago (1984), onboard the Connie, as a young E-4 I
stood 4 hour watches "shooting" using the then brand new APM-424 "star
wars" test set on every A/C that was scheduled to launch. If the Mode
4 didn't work, they didn't launch,,,,period. Moreover, in the
following 20 years, addtional improvements to the APM-424 "star wars"
transponder test set and upgrades to the APX-72 and Kit-1C's have
resulted in a successful method of determining reliabilty and accuracy
of IFF systems onboard US Navy A/C prior to launch.
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?
Yes or No answers with explantions are all that are required
before moving forward and/or speculating further.

On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:37:23 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in news:FbidnTOlj-
:

Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


Did you miss the bit about Patriot rules of engagement being
"insufficently robust"? Seems to me that calling for meals of crow is in
bad taste all around here. . . . it was a tragedy, it was war, the two go
hand in hand.


The Patriot had its share of troubles, no doubt. But immediately after it
was announced that the Tornado had gone down, some folks took a "it's the
Patriot, stupid" stance as to assigning the guilt in this case, despite an
early mention of the suspicion that all may have not been right regarding
the aircraft's IFF. Now the chickens have come home to roost. And since you
are so keyed up in still trying to point the fickle finger of fate at the
Patriot in this case, did you miss the part that said: "The investigation
board determined that the Patriot crew fired in perceived self-defense in
accordance with existing procedures and Rules of Engagement"? Yeah, it was a
tragedy--the ROE doubtless contributed to it, too. But those ROE would never
have been invoked had the aircraft had a functional IFF transmitting the
proper code. Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it went
down?

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"



  #9  
Old May 18th 04, 09:57 AM
Drewe Manton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:

Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it
went down?


Nope, feel free to google it (though I doubt you have the desire to do
so, I certainly don't!) but my stance from day one has been that it was a
fog of war tragedy. Although I will admit to a wry smile when a couple of
days later an F-16CJ fired on a Patriot radar system (I think I'm right
in saying no-one was hurt in that incident, do you remember anything?).
Just another chain of events in large scale operations that come together
at the worst possible moment and create the worst possible outcome for
those involved.

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"
  #10  
Old May 18th 04, 11:08 AM
BUFDRVR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

fudog50 wrote:

The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?


Even if there wasn't, both RED CROWN and AWACS give you an IFF "thumbs up or
thumbs down" upon check-in with them, so it was obviously working earlier.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question about the F-22 and it's radar. Scott Ferrin Military Aviation 128 June 13th 04 01:23 AM
Who's At Fault in UAV/Part91 MAC? Larry Dighera Instrument Flight Rules 24 April 29th 04 03:08 PM
Mother Russia closer to develop an ABM system Alejandro Magno Military Aviation 11 January 11th 04 07:06 PM
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools RT Military Aviation 104 September 25th 03 03:17 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.