Low cost ADS-B Options

Thanks Darryl,

You are correct - I did confuse the two. I'm waiting for the less
expensive model and hoping it will be satisfactory to the FAA. Too many
TSOs and "meets the requirements of"s for me.

Dan

On 8/6/2016 11:14 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Dan

I think you might be confusing the Trig TN70 and TN72 that Mike mentioned.

The TN70 is an existing ~$3k TSO-C145c GPS source from Trig that has been available for quite a while. It's a rebranded NexNav Mini. I had suspected the TN72 will be a rebranded NexNav Micro-i. Early photos from UK TABS trials showed a TN72 in NexNav looking packaging that looked like a Micro-i. Accord (the maker of NexNav GPS) was acquired by Aspen in 2015 and it's going to be interesting what happens there long term, especially with competition with Garmin. Accord makes nice stuff but they seemed to often announce new things quite early for the OEM market. If the low-cost TN72 is TSO-C145c approved it would replace the $3k TN70... which has me a bit suspicious of Trig announcing this early at Oshkosh (regardless of what staff there told Mike). If it's based on the Micro-i, then given what Accord has said about the Micro-i in the past it likely would not be TSO-C145c approved and would be for experimental aircraft only or TABS if TABS ever happens. If could be based on something entirely different, we'll have to wait and see. Again if it is TSO-C145c approved at that price point that is a really dramatic change, but right now that price point is where competing "meets requirements of..." GPS sources like the Garmin GPS 20A are priced (and Trig has no OEM/rebadged product to match today).

What they are telling you here about a TN70 install is not really different than what I said earlier. With an TSO-C145c approved GPS source and an existing AML STC for use with the Trig TT-22 that forms a basis for a field approval/337 install even for aircraft not on the AML list. There are other Trig/Peregrine STCs for third party GPS sources as well but you might as well use the TN70 today. As for using their maintenance network good point there, I'd missed that before although Trig say the same thing on their web site. Especially for glider installs by a glider A&P I hope/expect they would be flexible here.

And you likely know the relationships here but Peregrine Aero is essentially a consulting company that Trig paid to develop the AML STCs for the ADS-B Out installs of it's product. They seemed to do a good job getting stuff done.

Darryl

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 8:24:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
I just heard from Peregrine Aero regarding installation of a TN70 to go
with my TT22. This part of what they told me:

The recent FAA policy on field approval installations makes it much more practical for the repair stations within the Trig dealership network to accomplish our STC on models that are not currently included on the AML. The TT22 and the TN 70 are an approved equipment pair under our STC (SA00756DE), so the repair stations within the Trig dealer network have the ability to complete this installation as an approved alteration so long as the equipment Is installed per the instructions provided by our STC and per the FAA policy on ADS-B installations.

Now to wait and see when the TN70 becomes available. I hope it's as
simple as that...

[snip]
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 12:14:03 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Dan

I think you might be confusing the Trig TN70 and TN72 that Mike mentioned..

The TN70 is an existing ~$3k TSO-C145c GPS source from Trig that has been available for quite a while. It's a rebranded NexNav Mini. I had suspected the TN72 will be a rebranded NexNav Micro-i. Early photos from UK TABS trials showed a TN72 in NexNav looking packaging that looked like a Micro-i. Accord (the maker of NexNav GPS) was acquired by Aspen in 2015 and it's going to be interesting what happens there long term, especially with competition with Garmin. Accord makes nice stuff but they seemed to often announce new things quite early for the OEM market. If the low-cost TN72 is TSO-C145c approved it would replace the $3k TN70... which has me a bit suspicious of Trig announcing this early at Oshkosh (regardless of what staff there told Mike). If it's based on the Micro-i, then given what Accord has said about the Micro-i in the past it likely would not be TSO-C145c approved and would be for experimental aircraft only or TABS if TABS ever happens. If could be based on something entirely different, we'll have to wait and see. Again if it is TSO-C145c approved at that price point that is a really dramatic change, but right now that price point is where competing "meets requirements of..." GPS sources like the Garmin GPS 20A are priced (and Trig has no OEM/rebadged product to match today).

What they are telling you here about a TN70 install is not really different than what I said earlier. With an TSO-C145c approved GPS source and an existing AML STC for use with the Trig TT-22 that forms a basis for a field approval/337 install even for aircraft not on the AML list. There are other Trig/Peregrine STCs for third party GPS sources as well but you might as well use the TN70 today. As for using their maintenance network good point there, I'd missed that before although Trig say the same thing on their web site. Especially for glider installs by a glider A&P I hope/expect they would be flexible here.

And you likely know the relationships here but Peregrine Aero is essentially a consulting company that Trig paid to develop the AML STCs for the ADS-B Out installs of it's product. They seemed to do a good job getting stuff done.

Darryl

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 8:24:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
I just heard from Peregrine Aero regarding installation of a TN70 to go
with my TT22. This part of what they told me:

The recent FAA policy on field approval installations makes it much more practical for the repair stations within the Trig dealership network to accomplish our STC on models that are not currently included on the AML. The TT22 and the TN 70 are an approved equipment pair under our STC (SA00756DE), so the repair stations within the Trig dealer network have the ability to complete this installation as an approved alteration so long as the equipment Is installed per the instructions provided by our STC and per the FAA policy on ADS-B installations.

Now to wait and see when the TN70 becomes available. I hope it's as
simple as that...

[snip]
Dan, 5J

While I didn't get any info from TRIG on who they are working with on the TN72 GPS Source, one possibility is that this is based on the same platform used in Dynon's 2020 compliant GPS source, which is currently available for ~$600 (unfortunately it only works with the Dynon Skyview system). TRIG is the OEM supplier for the Mode S / 1090ES transponder that is part of the Skyview system, so these guys already have a close working relationship.

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 10:43:51 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
[snip]
While I didn't get any info from TRIG on who they are working with on the TN72 GPS Source, one possibility is that this is based on the same platform used in Dynon's 2020 compliant GPS source, which is currently available for ~$600 (unfortunately it only works with the Dynon Skyview system). TRIG is the OEM supplier for the Mode S / 1090ES transponder that is part of the Skyview system, so these guys already have a close working relationship.

Mike

The Dynon SV-GPS-2020 is not TSO-C145c approved and has no STCs for installing in certified aircraft. It is a "meets requirements of.. " source. Without that I don't believe you can install this in a certified aircraft today, and Dynon's market is really experimental aircraft, where absolutely the "meets requirements of .." is enough. Like many vendors in this space you have to be very careful reading Dynon marketing collateral because most of it implicitly assumes the discussion is about experimental aircraft.

I have no clue who the OEM for the SC-GPS-2020 GPS engine is. It's got unusual packaging with the receiver built into the antenna housing like the previous Dynon GPS did as well.

---

Now.... there is a separate effort that Dynon is part of to allow (via STC) non-TSO avionics use in certified aircraft. Dynon has a recent STC for their EFIS-D10A and EFIS-D100 units for example, nothing to do with ADS-B Out.. I am not aware of any other vendor with a STC for a non-TSO GPS source with an ADS-B Out transmitter. That *might* be what Trig is aiming at as well for ADS-B Out and account for how a NexNav Micro-i might be claimed as suitable in certified aircraft. Wether non-TSO but STC'ed stuff is a possibility for ADS-B out has been an area of speculation/confusion for a while. I'll (happily) believe it when we see an STC.

Darryl

Based on my discussion with Trig the new position source is not going to be certified and it is essentially the modified Dynon unit. The modification of the position source was to support lower baud rate since Trig T22 does not support the required baud rate that the Dynon position source requires. The transponder Trig makes for Dynon supports the huger baud rate.

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 10:32:13 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
[snip]

The TRIG guys assured me that the new TN72 GPS source would be 2020 compliant and have all the necessary approvals required for use in certified aircraft.

Unfortunately it seems you were not being told accurate information or there was a miscommunication about exactly what was being said. It is always critical to ask exactly what TSO vendors mean. I just checked with Trig executives and the TN72 will be TSO-C199 (i.e. TABS) Class B (i.e. the GPS part of TABS) approved. It will not be TSO-C145c approved (and the price point there just seemed totally wrong for a TSO-C145 GPS). Trig is hoping to use it in experimental aircraft with a "meets requirements of...". There is always that long term possibility of STC but non-TSO type use, but it is speculation today/if anybody will pull that off with ADS-B Out. My take on all this is this is the TN72 won't be relevant for use in certified gliders when it ships/certainly not end of this year timeframe.

I have high regard for Trig, they don't hype stuff, have pretty clear marketing, build well engineered products that work well in gliders, and generally bent-over backwards to provide technical help or advice etc. It's unfortunate here something went wrong with communicating information.

So my take on three separate things here when thinking about the TN72.... (when folks see/hear more about the TN72 keep there three separate things in mind and match up the exact specs you see to regulations and what you can actually do with the device).

1. The geek in me thinks it will be great to see the TN72 available with TSO-C199 Class B approval, that helps validate and promote TSO-C199 and the approval process. The more TSO-C199 (TABS) devices actually shipping the more it helps push along TABS install/use regulation, even if not installable under them today (since there are no TABS regulations). If for example gliders got suitable TABS install/use regulations and an alternate means of providing ADS-B Out then this device would hopefully be usable in certified and experimental gliders. But we have to see what that all that regulation looks like, it might be nice, it might be a horrible mess, it might be tied in with gliders effectively losing transponder/ADS-B carriage exemptions or it might not. Who knows. This potential regulatory stuff is where the SSA should be involved today, with the FAA and manufacturers.

2. It will be great to see it with "meets requirements of .. " TSO-C145c type language so it can be used in experimental aircraft, including experimental gliders for "2020 complaint" ADS-B Out installs. Great news for folks with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want ADS-B Out.

3. It would be great to eventually see AML STC/non-TSO approved if Trig (and partners) can pull this off so this can be installed in certified aircraft. But that's more my speculation/not guaranteed/don't expect this soon, etc.

---

Dan -- if you want an ADS-B Out install with your TT-22 in your Stemme around the end of this year timeframe it's likely the TN70 is the GPS box for you. If you really want this you might as sign up for the $500 FAA rebate (motorgliders should qualify, non-powered gliders won't). Not much of a cost offset, but still...

2. It will be great to see it with "meets requirements of .. " TSO-C145c type language so it can be used in experimental aircraft, including experimental gliders for "2020 complaint" ADS-B Out installs. Great news for folks with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want ADS-B Out.

Darryl, thank you for sharing your expertise -- extremely helpful. Your #2 above is my scenario: I just installed the TT-22 in my experimental DG-400. You say above "Trig is *hoping* to use it in experimental aircraft with a "meets requirements of..." Do you think it's a reasonable expectation that this will be allowed?

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 6:13:57 PM UTC-7, Paul Villinski wrote:
2. It will be great to see it with "meets requirements of .. " TSO-C145c type language so it can be used in experimental aircraft, including experimental gliders for "2020 complaint" ADS-B Out installs. Great news for folks with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want ADS-B Out.

Darryl, thank you for sharing your expertise -- extremely helpful. Your #2 above is my scenario: I just installed the TT-22 in my experimental DG-400. You say above "Trig is *hoping* to use it in experimental aircraft with a "meets requirements of..." Do you think it's a reasonable expectation that this will be allowed?

Paul

I don't don't know for sure, but I would hope so since it's what is likely to drive most installs for the TN72, at least initially. And if it comes near the end of the year hopefully it will be usable for you and installable over the off-season. I'd be pinging dealers and asking them what they know/can find out about availability of the GPS (and install documentation to with a Trig TT-22 in an experiential aircraft). For a ~$600 + install cost its likely an appealing update for many folks with a TT-22.

On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

Just got a reply update from Trig Avionics Technical Support,
Mid-Continent Instruments and Avionics, that the TN72 will be available soon.

Trig is going to officially announce the TN72 this coming weekend at a UK show, at this time "we" will formally distribute TN72 information.

Here's a little more about it: http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

The antenna is sold separately. If I remember correctly, the Garmin GPS 20A box needed a $300 antenna. I'm guessing the Trig TN72 with an antenna will cost around $1000. We'll see soon...

-John, Q3

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 4:39:40 PM UTC-5, glidergreg wrote:
Trig is going to officially announce the TN72 this coming weekend at a UK show, at this time "we" will formally distribute TN72 information.

Please keep us posted!

On 12/1/2016 2:39 PM, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.
Just got a reply update from Trig Avionics Technical Support,
Mid-Continent Instruments and Avionics, that the TN72 will be available soon.

Trig is going to officially announce the TN72 this coming weekend at a UK show, at this time "we" will formally distribute TN72 information.

--
Dan, 5J