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Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 15th 17, 04:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Villinski
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Posts: 51
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates. Is positional information logged by the ground stations, and retained for any period of time, or is it "real-time" only? If retained, it seems that ADS-B could supply search and rescue with a last known fix and trajectory if needed.

Of course, used in a glider, this might create some consternation if an ADS-B breadcrumb trail shows a glider making an off-airport landing....

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system. Can't quite get a handle on the value of ADS-B out vis-a-vis traffic avoidance, versus simply using the Mode S transponder as is. However, if ADS-B out could provide useful tracking in the event of an emergency, that added value would be significant.
  #2  
Old February 15th 17, 04:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Villinski
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Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

Google first, post second. From the FAA website:

The highly precise GPS-based surveillance provided by ADS-B also improves the ability to perform life-saving search and rescue missions. Air traffic controllers tracking aircraft with ADS-B Out have more accurate information about last reported positions, helping to take the "search" out of search and rescue. ADS-B Out avionics transmit data approximately once every second, and therefore enables more precise tracking of aircraft compared with the current radar sweep rates of 3-15 seconds. The smaller footprint of ADS-B ground radios enables their placement in areas where a radar site would be unfeasible, such as mountainous terrain. Air traffic controllers have better information about an airplane's last position, thereby reducing the critical window of time involved in a search and rescue operation.

Surprised that more is not being made of this.
  #3  
Old February 15th 17, 05:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 7:30:57 PM UTC-8, Paul Villinski wrote:

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system.




If you already have a Trig 22 in your experimental glider, you can legally connect one of the existing GPSs you probably already have in your panel to your Trig, and start sending adsb-out as a NPE aircraft. This is explained in the FAA document

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs...3-15-webV2.pdf

As explained in the FAA document, ATC may choose to not send your adsb-reported position to other aircraft. But they will receive your transmission, so presumably could use it for search-and-rescue purposes.

If you do this, you need to use the Trig setup menu to select 'uncertified gps' as the adsb source. See the Trig manual.


  #4  
Old February 15th 17, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Posts: 177
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:30:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 7:30:57 PM UTC-8, Paul Villinski wrote:

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system.




If you already have a Trig 22 in your experimental glider, you can legally connect one of the existing GPSs you probably already have in your panel to your Trig, and start sending adsb-out as a NPE aircraft. This is explained in the FAA document

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs...3-15-webV2.pdf

As explained in the FAA document, ATC may choose to not send your adsb-reported position to other aircraft. But they will receive your transmission, so presumably could use it for search-and-rescue purposes.

If you do this, you need to use the Trig setup menu to select 'uncertified gps' as the adsb source. See the Trig manual.


If you already have a Trig transponder, I would spend the extra money to add a TN72 GPS source and not just use an uncertified gps. Using the TN72 will trigger ADS-B ground stations to send you traffic data. For $200 you can get a FlightBox (https://www.openflightsolutions.com/flightbox/) dual frequency ADS-B receiver. Add your iPhone and the free FltPlan Go app, and you have a complete ADS-B collision avoidance system, plus free weather, TFRs, etc.....

You'll be amazed at how much traffic is out there that you never see visually.
  #5  
Old February 15th 17, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sarah[_2_]
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Posts: 63
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

It's not guaranteed you will be 'seen' by a ground station at low altitude, especially out in the boonies or in the mountains. This site supposedly shows coverage by altitude interactively:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/

Take it with a grain of salt - I saw "0 towers" in central WI last year on the way to Oshkosh at 3000' AGL.

I'm curious what people flying with ADS-B in NV or UT see for ground station coverage.


On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:57 PM UTC-6, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates. Is positional information logged by the ground stations, and retained for any period of time, or is it "real-time" only? If retained, it seems that ADS-B could supply search and rescue with a last known fix and trajectory if needed.

Of course, used in a glider, this might create some consternation if an ADS-B breadcrumb trail shows a glider making an off-airport landing....

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system. Can't quite get a handle on the value of ADS-B out vis-a-vis traffic avoidance, versus simply using the Mode S transponder as is. However, if ADS-B out could provide useful tracking in the event of an emergency, that added value would be significant.


  #6  
Old February 15th 17, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

That's odd. I saw a different coverage map yesterday that shows pretty
good coverage over the Midwest at 3,000 AGL as well. It would not be
reasonable to think that there were several towers along your route that
were all out of service. I'm fortunate that I can look at the mountain
top out of my living room window and literally see the ADS-B tower
there. From Moriarty airport, I can see the top of the mountain, as well.

The flight box looks to be an implementation of the Stratux system that
you can build for a lot less money from parts bought on Amazon. The
difference being the well-thought out box and configuration. I think
the difference in price is worth it.

On 2/15/2017 8:58 AM, Sarah wrote:
It's not guaranteed you will be 'seen' by a ground station at low altitude, especially out in the boonies or in the mountains. This site supposedly shows coverage by altitude interactively:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/

Take it with a grain of salt - I saw "0 towers" in central WI last year on the way to Oshkosh at 3000' AGL.

I'm curious what people flying with ADS-B in NV or UT see for ground station coverage.


On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:57 PM UTC-6, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates. Is positional information logged by the ground stations, and retained for any period of time, or is it "real-time" only? If retained, it seems that ADS-B could supply search and rescue with a last known fix and trajectory if needed.

Of course, used in a glider, this might create some consternation if an ADS-B breadcrumb trail shows a glider making an off-airport landing....

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system. Can't quite get a handle on the value of ADS-B out vis-a-vis traffic avoidance, versus simply using the Mode S transponder as is. However, if ADS-B out could provide useful tracking in the event of an emergency, that added value would be significant.


--
Dan, 5J
  #7  
Old February 16th 17, 01:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Posts: 177
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 10:58:45 AM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
It's not guaranteed you will be 'seen' by a ground station at low altitude, especially out in the boonies or in the mountains. This site supposedly shows coverage by altitude interactively:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/

Take it with a grain of salt - I saw "0 towers" in central WI last year on the way to Oshkosh at 3000' AGL.

I'm curious what people flying with ADS-B in NV or UT see for ground station coverage.


On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:57 PM UTC-6, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates. Is positional information logged by the ground stations, and retained for any period of time, or is it "real-time" only? If retained, it seems that ADS-B could supply search and rescue with a last known fix and trajectory if needed.

Of course, used in a glider, this might create some consternation if an ADS-B breadcrumb trail shows a glider making an off-airport landing....

Debating whether to add the new Trig TN72 GPS unit and TA70 antenna to the Trig TT22 transponder in my Experimental glider, for a legal TSO-C199 "TABS" ADS-B system. Can't quite get a handle on the value of ADS-B out vis-a-vis traffic avoidance, versus simply using the Mode S transponder as is. However, if ADS-B out could provide useful tracking in the event of an emergency, that added value would be significant.


How were you looking for ADS-B towers in WI? When I flew from Chicago to MSP last spring, I had ADS-B ground station coverage with TIS-B for the entire trip. Granted, I was somewhat higher than 3,000 ft. The FAA ADS-B map shows ground station coverage for most of the state at 3,000 ft, which I would suspect is quite accurate.

This summer, I flew from MSP to Bozeman, Reno, Albuquerque, Charlotte, and finally Naples FL. Again I had ADS-B ground station coverage with TIS-B for virtually the entire trip. For much of the trip out west, I was at 14,500 ft MSL. At lower altitudes, I'm quite sure that I would not have had coverage in many of the remote areas. In addition, TIS-B may not be useful, even if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, if you are at an altitude where transponder equipped aircraft are below radar coverage, and are not visible to ATC.

In 2020, which is only 3 years out, a large majority of aircraft are going to be ADS-B OUT equipped, and as long as you have a dual band ADS-B receiver, you'll be able to see all of that traffic, regardless of altitude throughout the US.

As far as search and rescue goes, don't underestimate the value of amateur run ADS-B receivers that feed traffic data to FlightAware and FlightRadar24.. In many cases the coverage for these receivers is much better than the FAA's network. The GermanWings crash in the Alps a couple of years ago was a great example. FlightRadar24 was able to collect FMS data from their ADS-B receiver network that was available to crash investigators within an hour or two of the crash.

If you fly regularly in a remote area, or are organizing a contest, you can setup your own ADS-B ground station and integrate it into the FlightAware / FlightRadar24 network with a total investment of ~$200 and an internet connection.
  #8  
Old February 16th 17, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sarah[_2_]
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Posts: 63
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?


How were you looking for ADS-B towers in WI?


Geeze, Mike. With an ADS-B receiver.

The FAA ADS-B map shows ground station coverage for most of the state at 3,000 ft, which I would suspect is quite accurate.


I just told you it wasn't.
  #9  
Old February 17th 17, 05:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 77
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

I believe it's worthwhile for an experimental glider to transmit adsb-out, even if only using an uncertified gps, because it will make your glider show up more accurately on Flarm receivers even if you don't carry flarm yourself (adsb-out targets show up on flarm with exact location and altitude). You should also show up for equipped power aircraft even if out of ATC radar contact.

The main reason to pay for a certified gps to send adsb-out would be if you also plan to install adsb-in and a traffic display. I still don't see a low-cost low-power adsb-in system for a glider, although I'm sure they will come. The FlightBox adsb-in device appears to draw 1.3A at 5V, ie probably 0..7A at 12V, which would be too much for my glider battery. Also, I would want a sunlight-readable display (I don't find iphones etc to be sunlight readable).

I don't plan to install flarm in my glider, because I think transponder+adsb will soon be the better choice.
  #10  
Old February 17th 17, 05:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 27
Default Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

The Air Avionics TRX products look like they will be filling the gap to provide ADS-B in capability for traffic in a glider friendly way. They also have models with FLARM TX and RX so you can have both if you want. I agree with your premise entirely that a transponder with ADS-B out is the proper way to go. FLARM is just a stopgap, and not a particularly good one at that. We need to participate in the airspace system as peers with everyone else if we want to expect to be treated as peers.
 




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