"Refusing to Handle You"

That's why they sponsor pilot controller forums.
Have you ever gone to one?
Al


"Dave Butler" x@yy wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Hell, am I the only one that ever consults a map in these discussions?


Could be. The rest of us look at charts :-)

Whew. This has been some discussion. If only Roy, Steven, Richard, Jose,
Warren were all inside the same room talking this out, it would make some
fascinating listening. As it is, man, I'm tired of reading. :-)

DGB

Ron
R for receiver only
Al

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
john smith wrote:


Oops!
I guess I got my code squawks backwards.
Should have typed 7700 for one-minute, then 7600 for the remainder of the
flight.


If you want to squawk "Lost Comm", just set 7600 and leave it there.

The "7700 for one minute, then 7600" procedure predates me, but I
understand that a long time ago (like 15 or 20 years), that was how it
was done. No longer the case.

...and I suppose I should stop flying triangular patterns as well. Never
could remember if it was clockwise for no receiver or the ohter
way..

Warren
I take exception to your statement.
The situation would have been researched and the user would have had the
situation explained to them right or wrong. Maybe that's what they would do
in your facility.
Al

"Warren Jones" wrote in message
link.net...

"Michelle P" wrote in message
link.net...
You would be mistaken. The QC dept. is not floor supervisors. The have to
look at it. I have made several calls to Potomac TRACON QC and I have
seen improvements in their services. I do the same for Leesburg FSS and I
have seen changes there as well. One controller got a few days off for
being rude and just plain wrong.
Michelle



If it makes you feel good, go ahead and call. You are wasting your time.
I assure you that a call to the QA office of a mac-daddy approach control
like Potomac, Southern Cal, Chicago, New York, Atlanta etc, whining about
the facility's refusal to work you en route through busy terminal
airspace, wouldn't make it out of the QA office. They'd pay you lip
service, and then they'd probably laugh about your temerity/stupidity
after they hung up the receiver. Little airplanes IFR en route don't have
the magical power to fly willy nilly through busy Tracons unless the pilot
knows the magic word when he is refused initial clearance. Also, if he
uses the magic word, he'd better be prepared to formally defend its use.

I can imagine that the controllers and flight service specialists in
Maryland and the Old Dominion tremble when they hear your voice on the
radio.

Chip, ZTL

R for receiver only

"R" means "right" as in clockwise?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

If an old man can make another comment that may not be current in todays
situations. When the original clearance was issued it conformed with
"standardized" departure procedures from the departing airport/terminal
facility. Even though a rereoute either major or minor will be required in
the future the clearance is issued. The first time the controller would be
aware of it would be in the center sector/terminal facility immediately
prior to the required change. This may or may not be compatible with
traffic flows in effect. ie departure procedures, arrivals procedures, etc.
Maybe on of the current controllers could be so kind to explain the
tailoring symbols on a flight progress strip. If they still use them.

I find it exceptionally hard to beleive any controller would use the phrase
"refused". I can beleive they told you you would have to be rerouted.

Nuff for now thanks for letting me vent.
Al

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
Jose wrote:
I'm not sure where this is going, but how about:

"What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east
of Potomac's airspace?"


Good enough.


...Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near
there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do
that?"


Well, he's at this point offering something. He could have been
offering something from the start, since he knows where I am and where
I'm heading. A more helpful original call would have been: "Potomac
can't take you right now. I can take you around twenty miles to the
East if you like, or to the northwest direct XXX. Which would you
prefer?"


You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer,
try again". It doesn't work like that.


No, it doesn't usually work like that. However, "you can't do that,
what are you going to do about it?" sure makes it seem like the
controller is playing that game.


"Say intentions" should
not be something pilots fear hearing.


It's not. But "we've revoked your clearance. Say intentions." is.

Jose

Exactly. They tear up my clearance constantly and issue new ones.
The best I can think of is that since the entire plan basically got
canceled, they were letting the OP rethink it all.

"Allan9" wrote in message
. ..

Steve do they still use PDR, PDAR, and PARs?.


If by "they" you mean US ATC in general, the answer is yes. I'm not
familiar with the DC area specifically.

"Jose" wrote in message
m...

"State intentions": "what are you going to do?" (controller has
hands-off stance)


State

tr.v. stat·ed, stat·ing, states

To set forth in words; declare.


In·ten·tion

n.

1. A course of action that one intends to follow.
2. An aim that guides action; an objective.


So, "State intentions": "Declare a course of action that you intend to
follow." (controller wants to know what the pilot would like to do)

The phrases "say intentions" and "state intentions" are not standard
phraseology. The phrase "advise intentions" is standard phraseology", the
Pilot/Controller Glossary defines it as "tell me what you plan to do." "Say
intentions" is far more common than "advise intentions", however.



Got it. I'd have to know (or suspect) that the reason they are =refusing=
to accept me is that they (as a matter of policy) don't take thruflights,
and not that they are balled up by the weather, or don't like the position
of my wings, or just don't feel like doing whatever it takes to squeeze me
through. I would never (prior to this exchange) suspected that "they just
don't do
thruflights" or "today they aren't doing thruflights".


It comes with experience.



Some time back, in a different thread (about angelflight) you stated that
angelflight did not get any priority, and continued to say that aircraft
are handled on a first-come first-served basis. Your statement above
seems to contradict that (otherwise I could just be scooted in front of
the next jet that's not there yet).


No contradiction. Aircraft are routed based on performance and destination,
within those parameters they're handled on a first-come, first served-basis.



Yes in this case, if they are "unable" to handle me because of all the
jets that haven't gotten there yet. They are unable to handle me =and=
give the jets priority. If what you say is operative, they are
=unwilling= to not give the jets priority in order to let me through.


They're coming in a steady stream. There's no room to let you through.
What you're asking for is akin to crossing a busy interstate on a bicycle.

They being the CONUS ARTCC
PDR = Preferential Departure Route
PDAR = Preferential DEparture Arrival Route
PAR = Preferential Arrival Route

Centers have them for most all terminal airspace.
Al

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Allan9" wrote in message
. ..

Steve do they still use PDR, PDAR, and PARs?.


If by "they" you mean US ATC in general, the answer is yes. I'm not
familiar with the DC area specifically.

"Allan9" wrote in message
. ..

They being the CONUS ARTCC
PDR = Preferential Departure Route
PDAR = Preferential DEparture Arrival Route
PAR = Preferential Arrival Route

Centers have them for most all terminal airspace.


They exist for busy terminal airspace, most terminal airspace does without
them.

Green Bay have them?
Al

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Allan9" wrote in message
. ..

They being the CONUS ARTCC
PDR = Preferential Departure Route
PDAR = Preferential DEparture Arrival Route
PAR = Preferential Arrival Route

Centers have them for most all terminal airspace.


They exist for busy terminal airspace, most terminal airspace does without
them.