Instrument departure, non-IFR airport

wrote:



The issue witih KRAL is a non-issue as far as my question is
concerned. There are many cases in which multiple towered airports
are near each other and you can still get an IFR departure; both
Northern and Southern California have many examples: SFO and SQL, HWD
and OAK, SJC and RHV, HHR and LAX. The TRACON works it out; that is
part of their job.

Apples and Oranges. All those close-by airports have OPDs and in some
cases, radar coverage to the ground.

Regarding terrain: I'm talking about a departure off 24 with a
ceiling high enough to see and avoid all obstacles which, in any
event, is not or should not be ATC's issue. I don't think either of
these concerns is the cause of the issue here.

ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor
would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a
procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected.

On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?


The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.



BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.


Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

On Mar 2, 10:35 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 03/02/07 08:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

You asked what he meant and I told you.

Sheeesh.


I didn't ask YOU what he meant. What qualifies you to speak for
someone else?

Sheeeeeesh.

On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.


None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR.

On Mar 2, 11:39 am, Sam Spade wrote:

ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor
would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a
procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected.


Nor do they have to.

On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:





Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?

The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.



BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.

Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

Steven:

Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this
SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they
won't issue it...

Alan

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 11:39 am, Sam Spade wrote:

ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor
would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a
procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected.



Nor do they have to.


You should look at the airport and airspace at issue.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.



None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR.

I didn't say that it necessarily does. I can also understand why SoCal
and KRAL tower don't want to do it.

wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:






Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?

The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.




BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.

Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.


Steven:

Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this
SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they
won't issue it...

Alan

We used to have airports with ODPs that didn't have an IAP. Policy on
that changed several years ago. This could be related to that policy
change. You should call SoCal and ask to speak with an airspace
specialist for the Ontario area. I believe they call it Empire.

On Mar 2, 10:45 am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?

The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.

BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.

Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

Steven:

Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this
SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they
won't issue it...

Alan

We used to have airports with ODPs that didn't have an IAP. Policy on
that changed several years ago. This could be related to that policy
change. You should call SoCal and ask to speak with an airspace
specialist for the Ontario area. I believe they call it Empire.


I just got off the phone with a supe for that sector. She was very
"firm" that there is no SOP and no clearances will be provided. I
gently pressed as much as I could about why, short of forcing her to
hang up on me, and she acknowledged that terrain is my issue not ATCs,
and implied that bad behavior in the on the part of local pilots in
the past had caused them to suspend the procedure. She would not say
what happened, but mentioned "What if you you go NORDO, what if we
can't tag you, then we are holding up everything for ONT and other
airports. " Of course, the same is true in many areas, so I think
there is more to the story they are just not forthcoming about. Very
frustrating.

Meanwhile the KRAL controllers have been very helpful. It looks like,
practically speaking, the only way I'm going to be able to depart KRIR
with a low ceiling is by going SVFR to KRAL first, then proceeding IFR
from there. Receiving ATIS and TWR on the ground at KRIR is not an
issue and, traffic and wx permitting they will provide a SVFR
clearance for KRAL while I'm still on the ground at KRIR. Not great,
but will have to do it appears.