Midair Warning

Warning/Caution:
A couple of days ago an F-16 broadsided a Cessna 150 at a couple of thousand feet over mid to lower South Carolina not far from where we fly gliders out of Perry or Manning. The still reasonably intact F-16 was damaged requiring the pilot to punch out which he did safely. The thousands of pieces of the C-150 are probably still floating down. They finally found the bodies of the 60 year old man and his 20 year old son.
The F-16 was shooting practice approaches at CHS (Charleston) and of course was in contact with ATC and or Charleston Approach. The usually poor media coverage hasn't a clue about the relationship, if any, of the C150 and ATC.
This could have been a glider. Same scenario is easily possible in most areas of the US in which gliders fly. It's been a while since we have had a glider/power mid-air, thank goodness but let's take this as a wake-up.
It's a fact that most US gliders still don't have a transponder. Many of my glider friends with power ratings just don't feel comfortable talking to ATC and seldom do! A few of our really good contest pilots don't even have a power rating and never ever talk to any FAA facilities. Back when I started cross country soaring in the 50s
this was , I thought, okay and much more fun not ever leaving 123.3.
Sadly that is just not the case today. Hardly anywhere in the US is it really safe to fly "in the blind". I really cherish the memory of my first 20 or 30 years of cross country soaring. My last 20 or so were scary and now that I've been out of it 10 years I wonder if I would love it now like I once did?
If you are not a current commercial pilot or at least fly power mostly on IFR flight plans, or at very least frequently fly cross country using VFR following then you are probably not comfortable working with ATC and in my opinion are not nearly as safe as you should be.
If all of your club gliders, at least those that go cross country, are not transponder equipped you, for your own sake, should encourage such. There are many really nice 2 1/4 " TX available now.
If you don't have an instrument rating you should still get a few hours with a good instructor frequenting active ATC equivalent areas.
Since writing the last paragraph I opened today's mail and see that SSA is encouraging a negative response to FAAs plan to make transponders mandatory for gliders. I've always mistrusted the FAA and have seldom found anything nice to say about them, but I'll not buck them on this TX issue. (Sorry Richard!)
Bottom line for me is: The pain of being too old to soar is lessened by seeing the increasing slope of the complexity and expense of the sport.
Fly safe or at least fly scared.

ED

As an instrument-rated power pilot, I have always flown VFR with flight following, or when not using flight following, I would tune in the CTAF of airports as I flew near, esp in copters. My airplane has both weather and a TCAS overlaid on the moving map. More information was always better.

Getting into a glider with no electrical system, and no traffic or communications, was very cool, so long as I was flying around the airport. But as soon as I started longer flights and XC flights, I went out and bought myself a good handheld radio and a PowerFlarm, but I still feel naked flying without a transponder, especially surrounding Reno.

There are three competing factors, as far as I can see, to not wanting "gear" in the aircraft: cost, feeling of independence, and safety. My first priority has always been safety, and I have spent the money to buy the gear I needed, since I thought it was a good as an insurance premium. But I definitely love the feeling of independence that comes from flying around, no engine, and no radio waves. Gliding has always been a low-cost business, and I know that there are a lot of people out there who save every penny to fly.

There's also the argument about "keeping your head outside the cockpit," which I totally agree on, and that's why its important for any traffic alerting system (like the vario) to be audible.

--b

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:46:04 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

As an instrument-rated power pilot, I have always flown VFR with flight
following, or when not using flight following, I would tune in the CTAF
of airports as I flew near, esp in copters. My airplane has both
weather and a TCAS overlaid on the moving map. More information was
always better.

I'm very pleased with the Dittel KRT2 I fitted last year in response to
the impending switch to 8.33 kHz channel spacing in the UK. The
unexpected benefit is that it has dual channel monitoring, so I can stay
on 130.4 and use the standby channel to listen to nearby airfields. If I
need to talk to them, a single button press to swap the channels is all
it takes.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Gliders flying X-C would be much safer if equipped with transponders. If you have occasion to fly up front in a small jet (say, a Citation), you'll see that not only at times they fly where we fly, but that without a transponder the pilot would not be able to change course in time to avoid a collision. A transponder, like flarm, is pretty cheap life insurance.



On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:13:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Warning/Caution:
A couple of days ago an F-16 broadsided a Cessna 150 at a couple of thousand feet over mid to lower South Carolina not far from where we fly gliders out of Perry or Manning. The still reasonably intact F-16 was damaged requiring the pilot to punch out which he did safely. The thousands of pieces of the C-150 are probably still floating down. They finally found the bodies of the 60 year old man and his 20 year old son.
The F-16 was shooting practice approaches at CHS (Charleston) and of course was in contact with ATC and or Charleston Approach. The usually poor media coverage hasn't a clue about the relationship, if any, of the C150 and ATC.
This could have been a glider. Same scenario is easily possible in most areas of the US in which gliders fly. It's been a while since we have had a glider/power mid-air, thank goodness but let's take this as a wake-up.
It's a fact that most US gliders still don't have a transponder. Many of my glider friends with power ratings just don't feel comfortable talking to ATC and seldom do! A few of our really good contest pilots don't even have a power rating and never ever talk to any FAA facilities. Back when I started cross country soaring in the 50s
this was , I thought, okay and much more fun not ever leaving 123.3.
Sadly that is just not the case today. Hardly anywhere in the US is it really safe to fly "in the blind". I really cherish the memory of my first 20 or 30 years of cross country soaring. My last 20 or so were scary and now that I've been out of it 10 years I wonder if I would love it now like I once did?
If you are not a current commercial pilot or at least fly power mostly on IFR flight plans, or at very least frequently fly cross country using VFR following then you are probably not comfortable working with ATC and in my opinion are not nearly as safe as you should be.
If all of your club gliders, at least those that go cross country, are not transponder equipped you, for your own sake, should encourage such. There are many really nice 2 1/4 " TX available now.
If you don't have an instrument rating you should still get a few hours with a good instructor frequenting active ATC equivalent areas.
Since writing the last paragraph I opened today's mail and see that SSA is encouraging a negative response to FAAs plan to make transponders mandatory for gliders. I've always mistrusted the FAA and have seldom found anything nice to say about them, but I'll not buck them on this TX issue. (Sorry Richard!)
Bottom line for me is: The pain of being too old to soar is lessened by seeing the increasing slope of the complexity and expense of the sport.
Fly safe or at least fly scared.

ED

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:13:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Warning/Caution:
A couple of days ago an F-16 broadsided a Cessna 150 at a couple of thousand feet over mid to lower South Carolina not far from where we fly gliders out of Perry or Manning. The still reasonably intact F-16 was damaged requiring the pilot to punch out which he did safely. The thousands of pieces of the C-150 are probably still floating down. They finally found the bodies of the 60 year old man and his 20 year old son.
The F-16 was shooting practice approaches at CHS (Charleston) and of course was in contact with ATC and or Charleston Approach. The usually poor media coverage hasn't a clue about the relationship, if any, of the C150 and ATC.
This could have been a glider. Same scenario is easily possible in most areas of the US in which gliders fly. It's been a while since we have had a glider/power mid-air, thank goodness but let's take this as a wake-up.
It's a fact that most US gliders still don't have a transponder. Many of my glider friends with power ratings just don't feel comfortable talking to ATC and seldom do! A few of our really good contest pilots don't even have a power rating and never ever talk to any FAA facilities. Back when I started cross country soaring in the 50s
this was , I thought, okay and much more fun not ever leaving 123.3.
Sadly that is just not the case today. Hardly anywhere in the US is it really safe to fly "in the blind". I really cherish the memory of my first 20 or 30 years of cross country soaring. My last 20 or so were scary and now that I've been out of it 10 years I wonder if I would love it now like I once did?
If you are not a current commercial pilot or at least fly power mostly on IFR flight plans, or at very least frequently fly cross country using VFR following then you are probably not comfortable working with ATC and in my opinion are not nearly as safe as you should be.
If all of your club gliders, at least those that go cross country, are not transponder equipped you, for your own sake, should encourage such. There are many really nice 2 1/4 " TX available now.
If you don't have an instrument rating you should still get a few hours with a good instructor frequenting active ATC equivalent areas.
Since writing the last paragraph I opened today's mail and see that SSA is encouraging a negative response to FAAs plan to make transponders mandatory for gliders. I've always mistrusted the FAA and have seldom found anything nice to say about them, but I'll not buck them on this TX issue. (Sorry Richard!)
Bottom line for me is: The pain of being too old to soar is lessened by seeing the increasing slope of the complexity and expense of the sport.
Fly safe or at least fly scared.

ED

Do we know for sure?--Most, if not all Power Planes (Airplanes in FAA speak) are transponder equipped.
If so equipped, they are required to be on. If VFR, then squawk code 1200. Most likely this Cessna 150 had a transponder and thus turned on, even if not communicating with ATC by radio. Military talks to their own controllers usually, was the F-16 talking to the civilian controllers?
I am seriously considering installing a transponder in my glider, and I am a CFII so no qualms about talking to ATC. But I wonder--would a transponder have prevented this collision.

Hartley Falbaum
DG808C "KF" USA

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:28:29 PM UTC-7, Hartley Falbaum wrote:
/snip/

Do we know for sure?--Most, if not all Power Planes (Airplanes in FAA speak) are transponder equipped.
If so equipped, they are required to be on. If VFR, then squawk code 1200.. Most likely this Cessna 150 had a transponder and thus turned on, even if not communicating with ATC by radio. Military talks to their own controllers usually, was the F-16 talking to the civilian controllers?
I am seriously considering installing a transponder in my glider, and I am a CFII so no qualms about talking to ATC. But I wonder--would a transponder have prevented this collision.

Hartley Falbaum
DG808C "KF" USA

Very, very sad.

The F-16C was operating out of Joint Base Charleston (KCHS), apparently practicing instrument approaches. (e.g. see http://www.postandcourier.com/articl...C16/150709558). I have not see any details on exactly what the F16C or Cessna 150M was doing or who the Cessna may have been talking to. The Monck's corner area includes fixes and holding patterns for KCHS instrument approaches. KCHS is Class C, and the collision apparently happened well outside that Class C airspace.

According to Kathryn's report, both aircraft had operating transponders. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/0...ng-falcon.html
That Cessna also show up in the flightaware flight tracking databases, which confirms that it has a transponder installed, at least in the past. Radar and audio tapes should hopefully solve this one quickly...

And to preempt any TCAS questions, no an F16 does not have TCAS.

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Warning/Caution:
A couple of days ago an F-16 broadsided a Cessna 150 at a couple of thousand feet over mid to lower South Carolina not far from where we fly gliders out of Perry or Manning. The still reasonably intact F-16 was damaged requiring the pilot to punch out which he did safely. The thousands of pieces of the C-150 are probably still floating down. They finally found the bodies of the 60 year old man and his 20 year old son.
The F-16 was shooting practice approaches at CHS (Charleston) and of course was in contact with ATC and or Charleston Approach. The usually poor media coverage hasn't a clue about the relationship, if any, of the C150 and ATC.
This could have been a glider. Same scenario is easily possible in most areas of the US in which gliders fly. It's been a while since we have had a glider/power mid-air, thank goodness but let's take this as a wake-up.
It's a fact that most US gliders still don't have a transponder. Many of my glider friends with power ratings just don't feel comfortable talking to ATC and seldom do! A few of our really good contest pilots don't even have a power rating and never ever talk to any FAA facilities. Back when I started cross country soaring in the 50s
this was , I thought, okay and much more fun not ever leaving 123.3.
Sadly that is just not the case today. Hardly anywhere in the US is it really safe to fly "in the blind". I really cherish the memory of my first 20 or 30 years of cross country soaring. My last 20 or so were scary and now that I've been out of it 10 years I wonder if I would love it now like I once did?
If you are not a current commercial pilot or at least fly power mostly on IFR flight plans, or at very least frequently fly cross country using VFR following then you are probably not comfortable working with ATC and in my opinion are not nearly as safe as you should be.
If all of your club gliders, at least those that go cross country, are not transponder equipped you, for your own sake, should encourage such. There are many really nice 2 1/4 " TX available now.
If you don't have an instrument rating you should still get a few hours with a good instructor frequenting active ATC equivalent areas.
Since writing the last paragraph I opened today's mail and see that SSA is encouraging a negative response to FAAs plan to make transponders mandatory for gliders. I've always mistrusted the FAA and have seldom found anything nice to say about them, but I'll not buck them on this TX issue. (Sorry Richard!)
Bottom line for me is: The pain of being too old to soar is lessened by seeing the increasing slope of the complexity and expense of the sport.
Fly safe or at least fly scared.

ED

I totally agree that all aircraft (including gliders) should be transponder and/or ADS-B OUT equipped, so that they are visible to other aircraft and ATC.

However, a BIG unanswered question in this accident is whether the Cessna 150 was transponder equipped, and whether it was turned on at the time. Did the F-16 have TCAS? Was the Cessna visible on ATC radar?

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Warning/Caution:
A couple of days ago an F-16 broadsided a Cessna 150 at a couple of thousand feet over mid to lower South Carolina not far from where we fly gliders out of Perry or Manning. The still reasonably intact F-16 was damaged requiring the pilot to punch out which he did safely. The thousands of pieces of the C-150 are probably still floating down. They finally found the bodies of the 60 year old man and his 20 year old son.
The F-16 was shooting practice approaches at CHS (Charleston) and of course was in contact with ATC and or Charleston Approach. The usually poor media coverage hasn't a clue about the relationship, if any, of the C150 and ATC.
This could have been a glider. Same scenario is easily possible in most areas of the US in which gliders fly. It's been a while since we have had a glider/power mid-air, thank goodness but let's take this as a wake-up.
It's a fact that most US gliders still don't have a transponder. Many of my glider friends with power ratings just don't feel comfortable talking to ATC and seldom do! A few of our really good contest pilots don't even have a power rating and never ever talk to any FAA facilities. Back when I started cross country soaring in the 50s
this was , I thought, okay and much more fun not ever leaving 123.3.
Sadly that is just not the case today. Hardly anywhere in the US is it really safe to fly "in the blind". I really cherish the memory of my first 20 or 30 years of cross country soaring. My last 20 or so were scary and now that I've been out of it 10 years I wonder if I would love it now like I once did?
If you are not a current commercial pilot or at least fly power mostly on IFR flight plans, or at very least frequently fly cross country using VFR following then you are probably not comfortable working with ATC and in my opinion are not nearly as safe as you should be.
If all of your club gliders, at least those that go cross country, are not transponder equipped you, for your own sake, should encourage such. There are many really nice 2 1/4 " TX available now.
If you don't have an instrument rating you should still get a few hours with a good instructor frequenting active ATC equivalent areas.
Since writing the last paragraph I opened today's mail and see that SSA is encouraging a negative response to FAAs plan to make transponders mandatory for gliders. I've always mistrusted the FAA and have seldom found anything nice to say about them, but I'll not buck them on this TX issue. (Sorry Richard!)
Bottom line for me is: The pain of being too old to soar is lessened by seeing the increasing slope of the complexity and expense of the sport.
Fly safe or at least fly scared.

ED

I totally agree that all aircraft (including gliders) should be transponder and/or ADS-B OUT equipped, so that they are visible to other aircraft and ATC.

However, a BIG unanswered question in this accident is whether the Cessna 150 was transponder equipped, and whether it was turned on at the time. Did the F-16 have TCAS? Was the Cessna visible on ATC radar?

No, aircraft in high-density traffic areas need to be transponder equipped, maybe ADS-B out as well. UAT-Out only does not provide visibility to TCAS but that is not a factor in this mid-air.

If you look up at the post a little before yours you'll see most of your questions answered. Well at least what should have been happening, without seeing radar tapes, nobody knows if the transponder (and encoded altitude) in the Cessna was working correctly at that exact time or if there as some other problem.

Transponders are only HALF the solution. You also need a means to detect other aircraft in your vicinity, so that YOU can initiate detection and avoidance. A transponder by itself will do ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD in preventing a glider to glider, or glider to VFR power (not talking to center) mid-air.

Fighters do not carry TCAS. They MAY be talking to center, but in a MOA they may never get a call about your presence from ATC, even if you have a transponder. Most have radar, and many have transponder interrogators that should let them detect you well before a midair will occur (I had this capability in old F-4Es back in the 80s and used it a lot while low in MOAs to find and avoid VFR traffic).

But - I think it is REALLY foolish to depend on your transponder and ATC to keep you safe - apparently it didn't work in this case. If the Cessna had been carrying a PCAS or PowerFLARM he may have detected the F-16 in time to at least look for it.

Bottom line. See and Avoid really doesn't work. Big Sky Theory works MOST of the time. Transponders are good for letting airliners see you, but are not much help against VFR traffic or other gliders. PCAS is cheap, and works. Transponder and PF is the best current equipment fit, hands down.

Kirk
66

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Transponders are only HALF the solution. You also need a means to detect other aircraft in your vicinity, so that YOU can initiate detection and avoidance. A transponder by itself will do ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD in preventing a glider to glider, or glider to VFR power (not talking to center) mid-air.

Fighters do not carry TCAS. They MAY be talking to center, but in a MOA they may never get a call about your presence from ATC, even if you have a transponder. Most have radar, and many have transponder interrogators that should let them detect you well before a midair will occur (I had this capability in old F-4Es back in the 80s and used it a lot while low in MOAs to find and avoid VFR traffic).

But - I think it is REALLY foolish to depend on your transponder and ATC to keep you safe - apparently it didn't work in this case. If the Cessna had been carrying a PCAS or PowerFLARM he may have detected the F-16 in time to at least look for it.

Bottom line. See and Avoid really doesn't work. Big Sky Theory works MOST of the time. Transponders are good for letting airliners see you, but are not much help against VFR traffic or other gliders. PCAS is cheap, and works. Transponder and PF is the best current equipment fit, hands down.

Kirk
66

The other half of the solution is that ATC (whether Military or Civilian) should provide traffic separation between VFR and IFR traffic, and ALL high speed aircraft (including Military) should be equipped with TCAS or equivalent collision warning or avoidance systems.

This apparently wasn't the case in this instance. The moral of the story is that GA and Glider pilots can't rely on the other guys to avoid collisions. We need to proactively keep track of all the traffic in our vicinity and get out of the way. Low cost ADS-B (IN and OUT) systems and TIS-B are going to be a big help.