If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1 for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on the S10-VT motorglider. Thx in advance. VARR P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/ sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup." |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
Just a guess, but I suspect the new Light Sport Aircraft category may
be responsible. It is my understanding that a Stemme has been the refuge of power pilots who have lost their medical. They offer a very respectable climb, cruise and range, and many are fitted out like a power aircraft. The LSA offers an alternative without the hassle of those long wings... But that's only speculation ;-) On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR wrote: There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale. Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1 for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on the S10-VT motorglider. Thx in advance. VARR P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/ sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup." |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR wrote:
There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale. Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1 for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on the S10-VT motorglider. Thx in advance. VARR P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/ sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup." Maybe one AD too many pushed the current round of sellers over the edge. The Stemme has to go down in gliding history as the most AD'ed aircraft I can think of. Al |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR wrote:
There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale. Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1 for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it was easy it would have been done before". I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31 years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more gossip and rumor mongering. So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are some of what I've learned and some of my observations. I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance. With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems many of the needed preventative measures were not known or understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the Stemme. The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to own. Dan Rihn Rihn Aircraft Corp. PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in general- One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers, wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this, so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible. the S10-VT motorglider. Thx in advance. VARR P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/ sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup." |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:
Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on the S10-VT motorglider. I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years, tgether with 4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this opportunity. I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy to Morocco and back. It was an S10-v (not "T"). Excellent performance in cruise, not ideal takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full tanks, I was way beyond MTOW. Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring safaris, quite good for serious XC, especially if the center of gravity had been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's quite awkward in thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...) I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions. TE probe never worked well. Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory: better revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again. Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller TBO almost doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO had been extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30% Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier on a long runway. The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher than they look. But you do need a smooth surface. Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on grass: it's quite easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact. The VT has much better takeoff performance. I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the owner has finally sold it. Aldo Cernezzi dg600M |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
Stemme motorgliders are complicated, without a doubt,
but you can do some amazing things with them. Take a look at some of the trips that Marty Hellman has documented on his web site, http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soarin g/photos.html. If you are interested a resource you should consider is Glider Bob in Telluride. He gives rides, instructs and acts as a sales agent for many sellers. I think he has been involved with Stemmes since they first came to the US. Unlike Marty and Glider Bob I am a relatively new owner but I am happy to try to answer any questions. Forest At 00:06 30 October 2007, Pigro wrote: On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote: Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on the S10-VT motorglider. I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years, tgether with 4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this opportunity. I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy to Morocco and back. It was an S10-v (not 'T'). Excellent performance in cruise, not ideal takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full tanks, I was way beyond MTOW. Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring safaris, quite good for serious XC, especially if the center of gravity had been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's quite awkward in thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...) I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions. TE probe never worked well. Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory: better revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again. Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller TBO almost doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO had been extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30% Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier on a long runway. The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher than they look. But you do need a smooth surface. Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on grass: it's quite easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact. The VT has much better takeoff performance. I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the owner has finally sold it. Aldo Cernezzi dg600M |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
I recall one occasion where person bought new Stemme from the factory.
On it's arrival to USA from Germany, it had 3 new AD's already. It is frustrating to buy a new plane and start working the AD's before you can fly. On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too much. This is the only sport where a sport equipment costs ~$100000 and up and when you are world champion, you get absolutely nothing. Maybe a trophy, which you need to ship back home and pay extra fees to airlines. Costs are a big dilemma and that is the biggest reason why soaring is declining... PS On 29 loka, 17:03, Dan wrote: On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR wrote: There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale. Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1 for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it was easy it would have been done before". I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31 years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more gossip and rumor mongering. So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are some of what I've learned and some of my observations. I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance. With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems many of the needed preventative measures were not known or understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the Stemme. The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to own. Dan Rihn Rihn Aircraft Corp. PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in general- One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers, wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this, so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible. the S10-VT motorglider. Thx in advance. VARR P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/ sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup." |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
They don't use Franklin engines, do they? Sorry...couldn't resist
Scott Dan wrote: I've been around airplanes and gliders my entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31 years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?
If you need a certified engine, you are going to amortize the cost of
certification over total number built. Given the incredibly large number of motorglider engines of any given type (100? 200? 500?), that cost contribution is way more than the cost of the metal. Which certainly doesn't mean that the certification of the engine would prevent is from quitting on you during takeoff... wrote in message ps.com... On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too much. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Stemme S10VT for sale | [email protected] | Soaring | 2 | March 27th 11 07:37 PM |
STEMME GMBH & CO KG | Glenn[_2_] | Aviation Photos | 0 | August 8th 07 11:22 AM |
Stemme | Mal[_4_] | Soaring | 2 | June 23rd 07 03:17 AM |
Stemme S10 VT | Mal | Soaring | 1 | August 29th 06 04:15 PM |
FS Stemme S 10V | soarski | Soaring | 1 | January 24th 05 10:09 PM |