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Lost comms after radar vector



 
 
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  #111  
Old January 24th 04, 05:27 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:_pmQb.108146$sv6.540134@attbi_s52...

I'd be looking for red lights... Green ones are good; but no lights means
everyone's asleep, gone home, or not concerned. Red ones mean trouble...


They're not going to give you a red light.


  #112  
Old January 24th 04, 05:46 AM
Roy Smith
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In article _pmQb.108146$sv6.540134@attbi_s52,
"John R Weiss" wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

I wouldn't look for
landing clearance either. I was just curious what he would do if he saw no
light.


I'd be looking for red lights... Green ones are good; but no lights means
everyone's asleep, gone home, or not concerned. Red ones mean trouble...


Once I've got the runway in sight, I can't think of anything short of a
raging inferno or a confirmed spotting of a FSDO guy doing ramp checks
that would get me back into the clouds nordo. Even if there was another
aircraft on the runway, I'd land behind him, or put it down on the grass.

Of course, I'm talking spam cans here. What makes sense for me may not
make sense for heavy metal.
  #113  
Old January 24th 04, 06:10 AM
Randy at Home
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...
|
| "John R Weiss" wrote in message
| news:_pmQb.108146$sv6.540134@attbi_s52...
|
| I'd be looking for red lights... Green ones are good; but no lights
means
| everyone's asleep, gone home, or not concerned. Red ones mean
trouble...
|
|
| They're not going to give you a red light.

Yeah, any red light could be: a) a lighted obstacle you're about to hit; b)
break lights from a car ;-)


  #114  
Old January 24th 04, 06:24 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Randy at Home" wrote in
message able.rogers.com...

Yeah, any red light could be: a) a lighted obstacle you're about to hit;

b)
break lights from a car ;-)


Think about it. If they don't give you any light gun signal and you land
without a clearance they're not at fault if you come to grief. If they give
you a red light gun signal and you put your NORDO airplane back in the
clouds and then come to grief somewhere they're gonna get a full share of
the blame.


  #115  
Old January 24th 04, 10:07 PM
John R Weiss
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"Roy Smith" wrote...

Once I've got the runway in sight, I can't think of anything short of a
raging inferno or a confirmed spotting of a FSDO guy doing ramp checks
that would get me back into the clouds nordo.


If the FSDO guy is Jack Seymour in ANC, go ahead and land. He's probably the
closest to a Fed actually "here to help" that I've ever run across!

  #116  
Old January 30th 04, 01:40 AM
Ron Garrison
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Another thing we learned on that flight was that handhelds aren't worth
crap inside the airplane. We both had handhelds, and we tried them
both, to no avail. First, hearing anything over the cabin noise was
very difficult (neither of us had adapters to plug our headsets into the
handheld radios). Second, the little rubber ducky antennas don't work
for ****, especially inside a metal airplane cabin.

What I think would make the most sense is a way to connect your handheld
directly to the external antenna in the plane, and make sure you've got
a way to plug your headsets directly into your handheld radio.


I did exactly that with my 172 and it works well. The avionics shop
installed a small jack that is connected to the #2 Com between the radio and
the antenna. When the cable is plugged into the jack, it disconnects the
built in radio from the antenna and connects the handheld directly to the
external antenna. I have a headset adapter attached to the lanyard clip on
the handheld so that it is always at hand, and the antenna adapter cable is
in the glove box along with a spare flashlight and a pair of vice-grips (in
case a knob falls off of something). I have tested the setup while flying
VMC and it works well. The only problem with it is that the internal VOR
capability on the handset (ICOM A22) doesn't work well because the antenna
orientation is wrong, but during a real failure I'll choose communications
with ATC over a NAV radio every time.


  #117  
Old January 30th 04, 02:16 AM
Ron Garrison
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"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:_biPb.92428$5V2.241427@attbi_s53...
"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Sure, but if the fix in question is your destination airport and your
clearance limit, then you might have equipment that lets you navigate to
that fix by a published approach to the airport (say, via an off-field

NDB
or VOR), but not have any way to identify the fix as a holding fix.


If you can navigate to a place once, you can do it again. If your

navigational
ability is so degraded that you cannot find your position via VOR/DME,

VOR/VOR,
VOR/NDB, or similar means, then you probably should declare an emergency

and
navigate any way you can to any place you can identify.


I disagree that the ability to navigate to a place once means you can do it
again. AIM 1-1-9.b clearly states that localizer goidance is only valid out
to 35 degrees each side of the course, and that the back course is
specifically not to be used for guidance unless a back course procedure
exists.

Assume a 90kt holding speed and an NDB colocated with the localizer antenna
to identify the fix. If there were a 20kt wind blowing across the holding
course and you did not correct for it in the hold, then 3 minutes later when
you begin the inbound segment of the hold you will have been blown about 1
mile to the left or right of where you want to be. At 1.5 miles from the
airport, that is just about 35 degrees off of the inbound course. Any
stronger wind, or unfavorable errors flying the pattern, and the localizer
may be giving incorrect guidance.

[I'm not trying to upset anyone with this admitadly academic exercise, but
as "homework" after passing my last BFR I was given the friendly advise to
go a read a page a day from the AIM. I found the section on localizers
interesting because I had previously had the incorrect idea in my head that
they are a special form of VOR. They use the same frequencies, but operate
on a totally different principal and their behavior outside of that 35
degree window can be quite bizarre.]


  #118  
Old January 30th 04, 02:32 AM
Roy Smith
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"Ron Garrison" wrote:
The only problem with it is that the internal VOR capability on the
handset (ICOM A22) doesn't work well because the antenna orientation
is wrong


Have you considered a steep turn? A couple of gees should be sufficient
to get you decent VOR reception :-)

but during a real failure I'll choose communications
with ATC over a NAV radio every time.


No question about that. If the ceiling is below the MVA, I vote for
vectors to the nearest ASR-equipped facility.
  #119  
Old January 30th 04, 02:33 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Have you considered a steep turn? A couple of gees should be sufficient
to get you decent VOR reception :-)


Yeah, and so much more entertaining than tilting the radio.


  #120  
Old February 1st 04, 12:39 AM
John R Weiss
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"Ron Garrison" wrote...

I disagree that the ability to navigate to a place once means you can do it
again. AIM 1-1-9.b clearly states that localizer goidance is only valid out
to 35 degrees each side of the course, and that the back course is
specifically not to be used for guidance unless a back course procedure
exists.

Assume a 90kt holding speed and an NDB colocated with the localizer antenna
to identify the fix. If there were a 20kt wind blowing across the holding
course and you did not correct for it in the hold, then 3 minutes later when
you begin the inbound segment of the hold you will have been blown about 1
mile to the left or right of where you want to be. At 1.5 miles from the
airport, that is just about 35 degrees off of the inbound course. Any
stronger wind, or unfavorable errors flying the pattern, and the localizer
may be giving incorrect guidance.


All your information after the second sentence is good. However, it does not
bear directly on your first statement.

Holding over an NDB is a standard, practiced procedure even without any backup
NAVAIDs. Hopefully, if you are holding in IMC over an NDB, you have at least
some idea of the wind, and can make an initial correction on your first outbound
leg. If you don't, you must make a larger correction on the inbound course, but
you can still navigate back to the NDB.

If you are using other NAVAIDs as backups or crosschecks, that does not mean you
ignore your primary NAVAID. Assume you are holding over that NDB collocated
with the LOC. If your planned inbound course in the hold is close to the LOC
front course, you can use the LOC as a valid crosscheck, and possibly use it to
fine-tune your inbound heading in the crosswind. However, if your inbound
course in the hole was NOT coincident with the LOC course, you simply would not
choose to use the LOC as a backup. Still, you can use the NDB -- your primary
NAVAID -- and get back to the NDB.

Flying good IFR in IMC in "ideal" conditions (no wind, no turbulence, no
vertigo, no emergencies) requires practice. Flying in less-than-ideal
conditions is more challenging, and takes more practice and experience. As you
build on your experience, you will discover what YOU can do in specific
situations.

 




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