ILS critical area when the tower is closed?

Bob Gardner wrote:
Isn't the localizer antenna down at the other end of the runway? If a pilot
is departing from the end, the localizer signal should be 700 feet wide at
that point.

I've had discussions with the FAA's flight check pilots as they are out
flying approaches checking our navaids. The critical area can be for
both the GS and Loc. Their equipment is so good in the flight check
aircraft they can tell if a person walks across the middle of the runway
from a 10 mile final.

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

How does the pilot know it is required if not told to keep clear of
the area by the control tower?


He can't know for sure when it is required. But if he's issued an IFR
departure clearance and not told to hold for release he knows it's not
required and without an IFR departure clearance there's little reason to
enter the critical area.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:28:09 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

In this month's AOPA Flight Training magazine, I read an article
which implied there was still some requirement to remain clear of
the ILS critical area even when the tower was closed.

I've been looking through the AIM, and can't find anything like
this. It does say that when the tower is open, it will keep the
area clear when there is an aircraft past the FAF and the weather
is below 800/2.

Is there a rule which states that the ILS critical area must be
kept clear at any time when the tower is not in operation?

Can you please provide a reference?

Thanks,


All I can find is a statement in the AIM that the ILS critical area is NOT
protected at uncontrolled fields; so y'all be careful out there!


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:28:09 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:


In this month's AOPA Flight Training magazine, I read an article
which implied there was still some requirement to remain clear of
the ILS critical area even when the tower was closed.

I've been looking through the AIM, and can't find anything like
this. It does say that when the tower is open, it will keep the
area clear when there is an aircraft past the FAF and the weather
is below 800/2.

Is there a rule which states that the ILS critical area must be
kept clear at any time when the tower is not in operation?

Can you please provide a reference?

Thanks,



All I can find is a statement in the AIM that the ILS critical area is NOT
protected at uncontrolled fields; so y'all be careful out there!


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
At many airports, such as my home field, KRYY, the glideslope is "unusable" when the
tower is closed... Perhaps that is some additional 'protection'....

"Mike H" wrote in message
. ..

At many airports, such as my home field, KRYY, the glideslope is
"unusable" when the tower is closed... Perhaps that is some additional
'protection'....


At many airports? I can't think of any other. Any idea why the GS is
unusable when the tower is closed?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:31:40 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Mike H" wrote in message
. ..

At many airports, such as my home field, KRYY, the glideslope is
"unusable" when the tower is closed... Perhaps that is some additional
'protection'....


At many airports? I can't think of any other. Any idea why the GS is
unusable when the tower is closed?

Steve,

I've seen it myself. One that comes to mind is HKS.

On the approach plate, says when tower closed, GS unusable.

Delta airspace that underlies JAN Charlie airspace....

Allen

Good point about the 'hold short' transmission. Brain fart.

Seems to me that at one point you wondered how a pilot was expected to know
that there was an ILS critical area without being told by the tower...that
is why I referred to the taxiway markings.

Bob

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2005 2:54 PM, Bob Gardner wrote:

AIM Figure 2-3-16?

Sorry I wasn't clear, Bob. I wasn't asking where the hold short
or ILS markings were or how they were depicted at the airport.


If there are taxiway markings for an ILS critical
area,
and the departing pilot knows that the weather is even close to 800-2,
s/he doesn't have to depend on a controller for instructions. The
controlling authority (in the absence of a controller) knows what the
situation with regards to inbounds is and can advise the departing pilot
if there is someone on the way in. "Hold short of runway 16, traffic on
two mile final."

Just who is going to say "Hold short" when the tower is closed?

Perhaps the only time you have to worry about the ILS critical area
is when the weather is below 800/2, in which case only IFR departures
will be of concern, and they won't get their clearance unless the
airspace is clear.

Assuming the weather is above VFR minimums, VFR arrivals and departures
could interfere with the ILS system, and there appears to be no protocol
to prevent that, since any airplane using the system isn't depending on it
to get to minimums anyway?

Well, I guess I have my answer.


Bob Gardner

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2005 12:41 PM, Bob Gardner wrote:

I don't see what the tower being open or closed has to do with it. They
don't shut down the ILS when the last controller goes home, and a plane
in the restricted area distorting the glideslope signal is not a good
thing.

Sure. But the tower is the controlling authority which is instructing
planes to hold clear of the ILS critical area.

If the tower is not in operation, who gives the order?

If the pilot on the ground is supposed to know when to hold clear,
how does he know? He may not even know a plane is using the
ILS. And besides, the tower only needs to keep it clear when the
weather is below 800/2, so does this go for the non-towered airport
as well?

Where is this defined?


Bob Gardner

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
In this month's AOPA Flight Training magazine, I read an article
which implied there was still some requirement to remain clear of
the ILS critical area even when the tower was closed.

I've been looking through the AIM, and can't find anything like
this. It does say that when the tower is open, it will keep the
area clear when there is an aircraft past the FAF and the weather
is below 800/2.

Is there a rule which states that the ILS critical area must be
kept clear at any time when the tower is not in operation?

Can you please provide a reference?

Thanks,

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Golly, Steve, unless it is a departure from a Class G airport with
controlled airspace at 700 feet, the surface area must belong to someone,
right? Class E down to the ground? Whatever facility has made a slot into
which a valid time departure will fit?

Bob Gardner

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...

AIM Figure 2-3-16? If there are taxiway markings for an ILS critical
area, and the departing pilot knows that the weather is even close to
800-2, s/he doesn't have to depend on a controller for instructions. The
controlling authority (in the absence of a controller) knows what the
situation with regards to inbounds is and can advise the departing pilot
if there is someone on the way in. "Hold short of runway 16, traffic on
two mile final."


What is the controlling authority in the absence of a controller?

Mark Hansen wrote:



Where is this defined?

It's defined by the sign and some common sense.

The folks who establish these standards can't have FAA legal write rules
for everything.

Mark Hansen wrote:

How does the pilot know it is required if not told to keep clear of
the area by the control tower?

By knowing the weather, knowing that someone is on the approach, and
knowing where the ILS critical area is.

--
Peter
























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